Did Genesis Copy Sunmerian, Babylonian, and Egyption Creation Accounts?

As one who really came to Genesis via the Hebrew what I see in YECism is a failure to understand either science or the scriptures. They take as history things that are not because they have failed to grasp that the Old Testament, especially Genesis, is written with worldviews and literary types and forms of thought that are alien to us today, and they read Genesis as though it was a friend’s great-grandfather’s diary of events he lived through and is describing, because that’s what it looks like in English. That those literary types are written to standards of truth that differ from ours does not make them erroneous, it makes them different – and that’s all. Our ways of thinking are dominated by science, but taking that worldview and imposing it on the scriptures is the same mistake the Roman Catholic church made when it adopted the Aristotelian worldview and imposed it on the scriptures, thus coming up with bizarre notions such as Mary being born sinless, a doctrine that is actually insulting to her Son, or that the pope is the fount of the church as though no other apostles mattered, and other oddities: imposing a human-invented worldview on all the scriptures is an error if only for no other reason than that it denies that the worldviews actually represented in scripture have any validity – but if they had no validity, God would not have used writers who worked within and from those worldviews.
Some of the church fathers noted that to deny the humanity of the authors God selected risks denying the Incarnation because it inherently rejects the idea that God can work through human flesh. But the inspiration of scripture can only be possible because of the Incarnation: Jesus becoming flesh is what opened the door to the Spirit working in human beings – however crazy that sounds to people bound to thinking of cause and effect occurring in linear fashion in time, though scientists are now understanding that in the quantum world, at the very base of being, cause and effect do not have to progress forward in time, so why should not spiritual matters? Yes, that’s an argument from the lesser to the greater, but Jesus used that very form of argument!

Again, it isn’t about turning anything into “allegory” (a form of reasoning that is actually very rare in the Bible), it’s about recognizing what types of literature the writer’s God chose used. Trying to make their worldviews fit ours strips away meaning from the scriptures; ignoring their worldviews and using only ours denies them the dignity of having had God speak to them in their terms – which is what the Incarnation is all about: bringing the divine to the human in order to bring the human back to the divine.
Genesis is the primary issue – and early Genesis at that – because by the time we get to the stories of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and his family the literary types are already converging towards ours. Even so, there are differences in how they wrote and how we would – though those ways aren’t as far apart as they were a millennium ago because our culture has adopted more than a few ways of thinking that are found in the scriptures.
Since the literary types before Abraham are not intended to be history in the way we think of it, there’s no “stripping away history” involved when reading them for what they are. Taking an event and doing what we would call mythologizing it was a perfectly acceptable and valid way of conveying truth back then – not that it is foreign to us; Shakespeare mythologizes in order to make points, and he’s following in the footsteps of the Greek playwrights – and we do not lessen the meaning of the scriptures by reading them for what they are, we uphold them and in so doing we stand with the saints of old and say, “God has spoken to us all!” in words we can understand. Don’t forget that the inspired writer tells us directly that God has spoken in diverse ways; that’s something Paul illustrates when he tells us that a certain story from the Old Testament is an allegory (and we say, "What? because we never saw it that way). Even God does it; He got the point across to Peter that the Gentiles were included and not rejected by an allegory using a sheet full of animals!

To digress a tiny bit, ponder the odd form of literature of the first Genesis Creation account, what I learned to call a “royal chronicle”. One of its odd features to us is that none of the details are meant to be taken literally in themselves, but they are fully intended to be treated literally within the account in terms of setting forth the point of the account – which for a royal chronicle is to proclaim a mighty accomplishment of a great king. So the writer structured it poetically with days,balancing three upon/against (not in the sense of contrary but in the sense of leaning and supporting one another) three, and those days aren’t meant as literal days – except that in understanding what this great king Elohim has done they can be taken literally, and the literal sense and the non-literal poetic reinforce and strengthen the declaration that our great King accomplished the mighty work of creating all things. And at the same time it is a second form of literature because the way the writer built the structure it turns out as an ANE account of establishing and sanctifying and dedicating a temple – which is totally missed in the YEC approach (and in fact has been denounced by a number of YEC advocates) because it is treated as mere history (in one example of idiocy a YEC preacher told me that it can’t be a temple establishment/filling/dedication because it’s history!).

What was new to the people of Israel was the meaning of sacrifice, as that had been mangled beyond hep by the intervening pagan millennia: the pagan concept boils down to “buying off God”, as Lutheran theologian Gerhard Forde put it, but the true meaning doesn’t involve buying off God, it involves God offering to be gracious if we offer to Him what He has specified, not because He by nature needs to be satisfied but because by nature He seeks to be a loving Father. The pagan version of sacrifice is akin to groveling and begging, but the YHWH-Elohim version of sacrifice invites us to lift up our eyes to Him and rejoice! It’s really how most of the pagan creation stories differ as well; they maintain that the gods fashioned mankind as slaves or servants and a few of the gods had to save mankind from the rest, while the Genesis accounts declare that God formed us to be His friends.
What was also new was that people couldn’t just pick a place and decide that’s where they are going to make sacrifices (though it kind of looks that way in Genesis) and so draw the gods’ attention to them at that place (which is what the Tower of Babel was really about, forcing the heavens to pay attention of their terms and not those of the gods), but that we meet God at the place and time of His choosing, that He condescends to live among His people in a house in one place (though He originally didn’t choose either the place or even to have a Temple, He in effect humbled Himself and accepted what His chosen king offered). That aimed them toward the ultimate lesson that just as it was just one place and just at appointed times that sacrifices were welcome, it was also in the end and at root one Sacrifice as well!

Of course the entire sanctuary service is an allegory; it’s also much more than that. Paul would say that the lesson of the Temple as allegory is that it isn’t the sacrifices that made the people holy, it was the faith that by bringing those sacrifices to that Temple God would keep a promise a make them holy. Also, the entire sanctuary service is symbol, but it’s more than just symbol (though in the ancient sense the difference is vanishingly minute because the ancient sense of a symbol was something that conveyed
what it portrayed).
But it doesn’t matter whether the Genesis Creation accounts are literal; the Temple and the sacrifices and the meaning God assigned them were very real, and it has to be remembered that while they may on one level be allegory, they were always more than allegory – that allegorizing of Old Testament events was a failure of imagination by the German theologians who set it off, and adopting their views robbed a couple of generations of believers of something basic.

I will say this: the Incarnation cannot be allegory, nor can any part of it, because it is the end of allegory: allegory requires something to point to that is beyond itself, and there is not anything, could not be anything, beyond the intersection of True God and True Man; that Event is what all allegories ultimately point to!

I heard the start of a sermon once that tried allegorizing the Resurrection; I don’t know how it turned out because I walked out and led a friend with me. How a preacher with fourteen years of education, ten of it in seminary and graduate seminary and doctoral seminary, in theology could manage to arrive at the notion that the Resurrection could be anything but real… well, it doesn’t actually baffle me because I’ve read enough of the liberal German theologians to follow the train of (what passes for) thought, but the idiocy of it appalls me.

3 Likes

“Inerrancy”. I hold to that in the way the early church meant it: that the Word of the Lord, in the fashion of an arrow fired by a champion archer, strikes the targets where God aims it. I reject it in the sense that YECism means it because that is a failure to understand what scripture is and an insult against the generations to whom God spoke in ways strange to us – indeed an insult to the Holy Spirit Who chose to speak in divers ways.

I am arguing for Jesus as the firstborn, a term that when used amidst the bits of Greek philosophy Paul was engaging and using means “opener of the way”, where the opener of a way imposes his/its “shape”, “form”, “character”, and “likeness” on that opening so that everything that comes through it takes on the “Shape” etc. of the opening and thus of the Opener. Since Jesus was the Opener of the Way of all Creation, it is not possible for all pagan or polytheists of whatever form concepts to be devoid of truth. And I’m thus arguing the fact that parts of Genesis lift material straight from pagan sources should not be surprising because pagans, even as Lucifer, cannot help but serve God even in their opposition to the True God.

You mean the minority and indeed novel view that the Bible has to fit the standard of scientific materialism, which is where the YEC definition of inerrancy arose. I oppose that because it belittles the revelation of God, arrogantly demanding that He could only have spoken in terms that make us happy. It is a “Christian theology” only in the sense that some Christians hold it; it has never been a Christian theology in being universal or necessary. And as Augustine noted quite correctly, such parading of ignorance drives people from the faith.

None of those are contrary at all to “my theory”. But there is a problem in the last one because it relies on a fallacy, namely that given a collection of writings the fact that a subset of that collection is upheld historically then all the writings in the collection must be historical. Trying to make writings that had nothing historical (as we understand it) in mind ruins the message of those writings.

Because Christ is the Opener of the Way: paganism has no choice but to here and there speak some truth, even if it is distorted as is the case of the Egyptian creation story which the Genesis writer copied and edited.
Indeed if the fact that the inspired writer lifted the details of the Egyptian story and tweaked them is ignored much of the purpose – indeed most of the immediate purpose – is lost! To grasp what that writer was doing we have to see that he very skillfully used the Egyptians’ own account to utterly deny that their gods were of any account at all; they weren’t even gods, they were just made things formed for YHWH-Elohim’s own purposes and as such were His tools and property! Read in the Hebrew and with the Egyptian version in mind, the first Creation story in Genesis is a brilliant piece of polemic writing, with (as I like to summarize it colloquially) its message of “All your gods are blong to YHWH!” For a people coming out of a place where they could not have helped but hear the Egyptian version that story struck a mortal blow to everything the people might have wondered about, and turning it into two other kinds of literature at once was utter genius. As a polemic it essentially tells the Israelites, “Don’t sweat it; the gods of the people you are leaving behind are NOTHING! YHWH has got this!”
Truth has to pop up in paganism; they can’t escape it because they are also shaped by Jesus the Opener of the Way. That the inspired writers could pick up pieces of partial truth and tweak them to show fuller truth should be expected. In fact if it hadn’t been so, I would not have believed Christianity because its claims about Christ are such that bits of truth have to pop up because every little bit, from quarks to quasars, from seas to seasons, from refuse to Resurrection, have been formed by the character of Christ and inevitably serve Him and declare Him.

No it doesn’t – it merely declares that even God’s enemies are nevertheless His servants. It’s all part of “all things work together for good to those who love Him”; they have to work together for good because of Who our Jesus is!

This is something that bugs me about Christians who shy from celebrating the great holidays of Christ’s life due to the fact that they were once associated with some pagan god or goddess: the concepts of those pagan deities don’t belong to them, they belong to Jesus! Everything about Astarte that was celebrated in the past is stolen property – new life, the light of the world, love and fertility; none of those belong to anyone but Christ, so it is not just fitting but imperative that every celebration of those things be taken captive and brought back to Christ from whom they came.

The same thing applies to pagan writings: whatever is true (whatever is honorable!) in them should be taken from them, indeed stripped from them such that they are left with nothing and are remembered no more, cast into a sea of forgetfulness so deep that no one will even remember their names (which the Genesis writer does a nice bit of by not even naming two of the greatest Egyptian gods; he just names them as ‘appliances’ that serve a function).

2 Likes

“Secular scientific interpretation” is mostly a fantasy in the minds of fearful Christians. Just about every science professor I had in college was a Christian, and they would all have laughed at that phrase because science doesn’t care about being secular or religious, it cares about finding truth. I’ve been privileged to hear two Nobel laureates who were Christian scientists and both insisted that the Old Testament is right, that there is no “secular” realm, there is only God’s realm, and that science is as Einstein (and others – they all stole it from Johannes Kepler) put it, “Thinking God’s thoughts after Him”:. Yes, there are atheists who try to bend things to exclude God, but even my atheist physics professor back in 1990 pitied them because scientists should never try to speak on things science cannot address.

I have no clue what “CBism” is, but I do know that in the late 1980s YECism was alive and well on campuses; they just hadn’t hijacked the term “intelligent design” yet. Morris was already active working to warp Christians’ views of science and of scripture, and going tom Christian conferences of whatever kind it was hard to avoid having YECers pushing their agenda.
As for Grace, that’s something I’ve always found lacking in YEC-specific conferences; they reek more of hate than of mercy.

You’re talking about a time when in our informal intelligent design club – formed almost exclusively of former agnostics and atheists – a fair number had come to believe there must be a Designer from their study of evolution. Since that time the strength of the argument for a Designer from evolution has only strengthened as the evidence continues to show just how elegant a Design evolution is.
And also since then the evidence for YECism has only gotten worse; the only change has been that the charlatans pushing it have gotten slicker and more polished. (For the record, I started calling them charlatans after I met Henry Morris.)

Another false – well, the opposite of a dichotomy, I suppose; a false joining: “authoritative” and “inerrant” are not actually linked, In fact I would say that the modern view of inerrancy as held by YECism is contrary to the authority of the scriptures because it attempts to make them something they do not claim at all.

By pointing out that if there really is a Creator-God then by necessity His truth will pop up all over the place – and then going straight to Paul’s description of Jesus as Opener of the Way (i.e. the Alpha as in Alpha and Omega) and explaining that since everything in some way proclaims the character of Christ then of course there will be truth found here and there in pagan teaching.
But the point then is that what was taken from pagan teachings – something you regularly have avoided noticing here – is always “tweaked” because it isn’t quite right. Even when Paul on Mars Hill used Greek poetry and noted that “in Him we live and move and have our being” is a true statement about God, he moved on to show that it wasn’t sufficient.

Sorry, but it can be – I just showed it.

I kept this bit apart from the above because it struck me that thinking those are irreconcilable falls under the category noted by J. B. Phillips when he titled a book Your_God_Is_Too_Small [observation: we really ought to be able to do underlining!]. The notion that paganism can’t have any truth makes paganism awfully powerful! and thus says God is not παντοκράτωρ (pan-toh-KRA-tore), “All-ruler”.

1 Like

I would argue that “secular science” and similar terms are actually tautologies, because secular (in this sort of context) means “not specifically religious”, and given that science is not religion, all science is secular by definition.

4 Likes

Are you saying that monotheism wasn’t a Jewish thing? God revealed himself to Abraham.

Nobody is saying that. But Israel was influenced by other cultures.

There he is with his personal opinion, and its theology, truly a self-contradiction. There is nothing ‘truly’ about illogical thinking. All the while neglecting the otherness of his ‘theology’, to which he has never responded.

One more time, @adamjedgar:

Exactly. Just like secular and Christian plumbing :grin:, as others and I have argued elsewhere.

One would hope that the Christian who plumbs always does an honest and more than respectable job, which is not a given, unfortunately.

1 Like

George Washington admitting he cut down the cherry tree is a myth. Nonetheless, I’d think it fair to say that it has stopped many a young person from telling a lie. Mission accomplished!

2 Likes

The ANE person would say, “Science? What’s that?”

YECs tend to use the word “secular” in this sort of context to mean specifically anti-religious.

That’s why I consider it so important to stress that the reasons why people reject young earthism have nothing whatsoever to do with secularism.

2 Likes

There was a “Christian plumber” business in one town I lived in. They always laid hands on the pipes before beginning, asking God to make sure they found all the problems, and there was an old hymn they sang about “Make sure the works of my hands” (or something along those lines) as they worked, and then they prayed for the pipes again when they were done, asking God to bless the work so they wouldn’t have to come back any time soon.

That final prayer actually made word-of-mouth advertising for them because it showed an uncommon attitude; too many businesses like that (and I’ve dealt with some) only fix the minimum necessary and leave bits they recognize are going to fail just so they can come back and charge more – one outfit I started warning landlords about: they came back six times for a leak issue in the same apartment because after they fixed one part another bit just a couple of feet away failed, like dominoes. I flat out told the owner there that they were ripping him off, that they should have – as I would have if he’d called me as a handyman – replaced the entire twelve-foot piece of pipe at once. His attitude was that he didn’t want to spend that much for one job, which I told him wasn’t too bright because every time there was a leak it was costing him a couple of hundred to fix the ceiling the progressive leak kept damaging, so it cost him over $1500 more than necessary because that outfit was doing it on purpose.

In contrast the Christian business always inspected everything they could reach from whatever spot they were actually working on and showed the property owner any nascent problems.

But the plumbing itself was just plumbing.

2 Likes

I think more precisely, they wouldn’t have been able to conceive of anything happening apart from the gods, so the idea of “cause and effect” would have been alien to them: everyone knew that the gods could change what happened, so leaving out the gods as a cause would not have just struck them as foolish but as dangerous.

Interestingly it took an ever more severe attitude about God having his hand in things to get to modern science; to the Old Testament ‘theologian’ God wasn’t just a possible cause, He was always a or even the cause of everything! But that was a step towards science because with it came the insistence that God was faithful and steadfast, not capricious, and so just as He gave laws for how society was to work then plainly He must have rules for how He ran His universe – and that meant that people could figure out those rules.

I’d never quite thought of it that way, but your first statement is right. I think I’d conceived of it as indicating “doesn’t care about God”, not “deliberately excludes God” – though come to think of it, I doubt a YECer would recognize the difference.
And indeed from all the Christian science professors I learned from they would chuckle and say something to the effect that deliberately bringing in God to make science “speak God” was silly because science “speaks God” already since it is nothing more or less than searching out His ways.

True enough. To use one of my professors as an example, it would be hard to accuse him of “secularism” given that every class began with a prayer that always concluded with “Lord be in my life and in my learning”.

3 Likes

and Morris is 100% right on this. The reason why is because of the way in which the entire bible is bound together. All of the “theological stories of the bible” tend to come from examples of literal history for very good reason, we are able to look back on the experiences of others in order to ensure that we understand what God is asking of us. He also explains the consequences of disobedience using that same history. These are not allegories, these are real people and the consequences are just as real. Christ did not allegorically die on the cross any more than Cain and Abel, Abraham, The Highpriest Aaron did not really kill and offer lambs as sacrifices to God. The reality is that all of the above were real events in history with very real consequences.

The tabernacle built in the wilderness…it original is found in Exodus and Leviticus and is part of the sacrificial system… are you honestly making the claim that building did not really exist…its just a fable? If you make that claim, how then do you explain the Temple built of bricks and mortar, which was rebuilt by King Herod and destroyed by Romans in A.D 70), traced directly back to King David? His son Solomon built the thing based on his fathers wish that God would have a permanent home and not a tent! Are you really going to claim all of this is an allegory? That is an impossible position to support!

The problem is that his science is 100% wrong.

1 Like

can we make an important distinction here…YOU believe his INTERPRETATION of the science is wrong.

Fundamentally, these types of determinations that are provided ignore aspects of life that cannot be ignored. You can pretend science all you like, but you cannot ignore philosophical concerns that drive individuals to consider science investigation in the first place. Science interpretation does not drive the search for knowledge…that is not a scientific claim.

All that “science” (the way you have just used it) does, is produce results from “designed” experiments.

Those experiments exist because an intelligent mind created them.

Sorry, one does not get to interpret away science just because it suits a literalist interpretation of Genesis. YEC does not differ just by interpretation, but in its misrepresentations, quote mining, selectivity and willful blindness to the total data, wild and nonsensical narratives, and at times outright fraudulent claims. Astronomy, dendrochronology, radiometric dating, varves, the fossil record, and geological stratification all present data that are contrary to a young earth. And it is not just that the earth is old, but we know a great deal of detail concerning the conditions and what transpired during that time. That has little to do with philosophy, presuppositions, or hermeneutics for that matter.

4 Likes

No, Morris is a fool on two counts: bad science and bad exegesis. It’s sheer arrogance to demand that God have forced a writer over three millennia ago to satisfy the prejudices of our modern worldview; it’s also bad theology because revelation is incarnational, God adapting to our weakness.

I can think of five “theological stories of the Bible” that are not literal history and were never meant to be, right there in the opening of Genesis.

I didn’t address your second paragraph because you have descended into making up things about other people plus continue to impose a false dichotomy on scripture. You’re the only one here talking about allegory, yet you falsely impute it to others! Seems to me there’s a rather explicit instruction concerning that sort of thing.

So is his Biblical interpretation. Morris acts as though he regards the opening chapters of Genesis as being some friend’s great-grandfather’s diary of events he lived through, ignoring that it is ancient literature. My impression on meeting him was that of a slick, manipulative used car salesman only worse because he sucks at science and he sucks at scripture,

That gets the award for the most irrelevant statement of the week – and the assertion before it gets a nomination for least informed.

Absolutely.
But YECism doesn’t just differ on the Bible by interpretation, it differs in that it throws out the basics of scholarship that apply to all ancient literature – and while the scriptures may be more than mere literature, they are never less than that.

To steal a bit from an eminently-well-done movie, one does not simply walk into Genesis in a translation and start interpreting, one must prepare and prepare well. Yet the only forays into the original text that I have seen from YECers amount to little more than acting as though Hebrew was really just a code for English that uses funny-looking letters with the result that they do not use the Hebrew to help understand the English, they dump out the actual meaning of the Hebrew and fill it up again with their low-quality English-based opinions.

3 Likes

honestly, ii am really struggling see any biblical evidence to support what is your personal view here. You are making claims that must be made simply to support a pre existing world view…that the evolutionary science interpretation is the foremost authority. Your claim about Mosee is absurd and did not even answer my question in any way shape or form.

To simplify my previous point i ask again… define and explain the sanctuary service (both earthly and heavenly)?

He’s not believing it, he’s stating it as a fact. Sorry, but you don’t get to dismiss scientific conclusions by chanting the word “interpretation” as if it were some kind of hocus pocus magic shibboleth just because you don’t like them. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: interpretation of scientific evidence has rules. If an interpretation of scientific evidence does not obey the basic rules of measurement, mathematics, logic, and factual accuracy, then it is wrong. Period. End of story.

1 Like

how interesting…ok here is a doozy that completely demolishes your claim here…

Remember the Lindy Chamberlain case “The dingo took my baby”

If you recall, Joy Kuhl (a scientist) tested the samples taken from Michael Chamberlains car and claimed that the testing proved that the samples in the car contained fetal blood. (Yellow Torana if you recall…i know the car as I went to school with Aiden and Regan Chamberlain and taught Lindies youngest daughter that she birthed after she went to jail)

Anyway, the world believed that scientific fact presented as such by Joy Cool… ie fetal blood was found in the Chamberlains car.

Imagine the surprise years later when the company that designed and built the lab machine that tested the samples taken from the car published a report that told the world that the machine was not in fact capable of detecting fetal blood. What is worse, the control mechanism by which the determination was made had a serious error…

In a statement made last month
and tendered to the Sydney inquiry
yesterday, Mrs Kuhl said when she
had given evidence at the trial she
believed she had used adult controls
However, from looking at the result
book she now saw she did not use an
adult control on 28 items, including
scrapings from under the glovebox,
the seam area of the camera bag and
a chamois.> on each of her tests. 14 Oct 1986 - Joy Kuhl: some of my trial evidence wrong - Trove

So, was the fetal blood found in the Chamberlains car Scientific fact or Scientific interpretation?

The essential trouble was that both the investigating police, and the principal scientific witnesses were victims of what some called theory-dependence. They believed - in some cases just ‘‘knew’’ in their gut - that the Chamberlains were guilty and the dingo story cock and bull. They looked for evidence that tended to confirm their theories, and tended to ignore or explain away evidence which did not.*No safety from legal lynching

This is the problem with TEists in the evolutionary debates, they ignore crime scene investigation work when making off the cuff statements such as "there is no such thing as scientific interpretation, only facts!

Perhaps in future i will use the term TEist Scientific Filtering. Of course you are obviously going to also use the reciprocal term YEC Scientific Filtering…and here we are, same place where we started. Or are we?

Perhaps if nothing else, we have redefined the issue…its not interpretation, its filtering :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: :rofl: