Did Jesus ever say "I am NOT God?"

[quote=“Theo_Book, post:63, topic:38581, full:true”]

You really should examine the scriptures I offered is support, not just quote a scholar to me.

Are you using a phone? You quotes are very confusing. After hitting the quote button, hit enter, then start typing.

Let’s stick with one account of the story, to make it less confusing.

I’ll say Luke 5 account. Vs 23&24

“Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and
walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”.

Jesus says this, the red letters are not from God, the author uses them to make Jesus’ words stand out better.

Jesus forgives the mans sins and heals him from paralysis, showing He is God.

Vs 20 “When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.””

Jesus forgiving sins against God. This paralyzed guy didn’t even show how he has forgiven anyone who wronged him (He might have, but it wasn’t shown). Se if all you have to do to have your sins forgiven is to forgive others, why didn’t Jesus say “Since you have forgiven others, your sins are forgiven”?

Jesus says, “Your sins (against God) are forgiven”. Then when accused of blasphemy, He wants to show that not only can God/Jesus forgive sins against God, but He also has powers of God to heal, and then heals a paralyzed man.

Yes, thanks. I just happened to chose 3 accounts of the same way, but there are many passages that show Jesus is God.

The fact that He doesn’t rebuke anyone who worships Him as a God is another proof.

It is also simple math, you don’t really need to have great knowledge of scriptures or original Greek or textual knowledge.
John 1:1-2 and then 14
“In the beginning was the Word(A), and the Word was with God, and the Word (A) was God (B). 2 He was with God in the beginning……….The Word (A) became flesh/Jesus (C) and made his dwelling among us.” emphasis added

It really is just simple math.
Word was God, A=B.
Word became flesh. A=C
Therefore B=C. If A = B and C = A, C = A and C = B. Jesus is God

So God is not needed? All we have to do is forgive those who wrong us? We don’t even have a fault?

That verse says God will not forgive your sins against Him, if you do not forgive your brother who wronged you.

Who did Adam offend when he ate an fruit? Who did eve wrong? Surely eating a fruit hurts no one. They sinned against God, who told them not to eat from it, God who told them to trust in His ways, to lean not on your own understanding. Because your own understanding might say, its just a fruit, and it is a delicious looking one at that, why not eat it. The Judge/God said, the consequences for that sin is death (separation from God) and the Judge ruled, and they died. The Judge is the only One that may have mercy and forgive those sins, only God can forgive sins against God.

I just am not sure of your intention here even? Are you atheist and here to prove that Jesus is not God by explaining the meaning of a few words? Why do you feel the need to reduce God and say we can do things ourselves, and be forgiven of our own merit (by forgiving others)?

1 Like

First, we don’t know “God’s” name. Christianity has ignored this reality which the Jews have known for 4,000 years. When Moses asked “God” for his name, Moses got a sarcastic response. YHWH/JHWH are not words. From what I have read, when Torah is being read out loud, those symbols are pronounced, “THE LORD.”

Second, almost every religion “believes in” one true god and many demi-gods that serve the true god. Christians call our demi-gods, “angels.”

Third, God, like Allah, are symbolic names for the un-named GOD.

“To A God Unknown,” by John Steinbeck talks around the problem of identifying God and is an interesting read.

The belief is that the name of God is too sacred to pronounce, so “the Lord” is substituted for it. You might have seen orthodox Jews writing “G-d” instead of “God.” Same idea.

1 Like

@Christy,
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born by the Virgin Mary. Jesus said of himself in the Gospel of John: Before Abraham was born, I AM.

Exodus: Tell the Israelites that I AM sent me (Moses) unto you. Compare the Old Testament verse with the New Testament. Jesus was calling himself I AM, i.e., Yahweh in Hebrew. You cannot deny it. Jesus was God. I will keep you in my prayers.

You are 100% correct my sister in Jesus.

1 Like

@Laura,

God bless you, Elle.

Edward

1 Like

[quote=“Theo_Book, post:62, topic:38581, full:true”]

[quote=“still_learning, post:50, topic:38581, full:true”]

ALL men are to forgive those who wronged them. Not sinned against them, only God is sinned against. For sin is missing the mark God set. Only God is the judge of us for our sins.

We are not righteous, we are not holy, people can’t sin against us. That sin can affect us, it can be directed towards us, but it is never against us. [/quote]

SINNED AGAINST = TRESPASSED AGAINST
Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Mat 614 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
:

[quote=“still_learning, post:66, topic:38581, full:true”]

The fact that He doesn’t rebuke anyone who worships Him as a God is another proof.[/quote]

Except you cannot produce a reference where anyone worshipped Jesus as God; they only worshipped Him as “The son OF God.”

[quote=“Bill_Wald1, post:67, topic:38581, full:true”]
First, we don’t know “God’s” name. Christianity has ignored this reality which the Jews have known for 4,000 years. When Moses asked “God” for his name, Moses got a sarcastic response. YHWH/JHWH are not words. From what I have read, when Torah is being read out loud, those symbols are pronounced, “THE LORD.”[/quote]

LXE Exodus 3:13 And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them? 14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you. 15 And God said again to Moses, Thus shalt thou say to the sons of Israel, Yehovah Elohiym (The Lord God) of our fathers, the God of Abraam, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever, and my memorial to generations of generations.

I don’t agree. Jesus was the real Son of God and existed for ever before he became Jesus, the Son of Man. God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit bless you.

2 Likes

The Church from its birth worshiped Jesus as the SON of God. He was that before the beginning of time.

2 Likes

[quote=“still_learning, post:66, topic:38581, full:true”]
Are you using a phone? You quotes are very confusing. After hitting the quote button, hit enter, then start typing.

Let’s stick with one account of the story, to make it less confusing.

I’ll say Luke 5 account. Vs 23&24

“Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and
walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”.

Jesus says this, the red letters are not from God, the author uses them to make Jesus’ words stand out better.

Jesus forgives the mans sins and heals him from paralysis, showing He is God.

Vs 20 “When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.””

Jesus forgiving sins against God. This paralyzed guy didn’t even show how he has forgiven anyone who wronged him (He might have, but it wasn’t shown). Se if all you have to do to have your sins forgiven is to forgive others, why didn’t Jesus say “Since you have forgiven others, your sins are forgiven”?

Jesus says, “Your sins (against God) are forgiven”. Then when accused of blasphemy, He wants to show that not only can God/Jesus forgive sins against God, but He also has powers of God to heal, and then heals a paralyzed man.

Yes, thanks. I just happened to chose 3 accounts of the same way, but there are many passages that show Jesus is God.

The fact that He doesn’t rebuke anyone who worships Him as a God is another proof.

It is also simple math, you don’t really need to have great knowledge of scriptures or original Greek or textual knowledge.
John 1:1-2 and then 14
“In the beginning was the Word(A), and the Word was with God, and the Word (A) was God (B). 2 He was with God in the beginning……….The Word (A) became flesh/Jesus (C) and made his dwelling among us.” emphasis added

It really is just simple math.
Word was God, A=B.
Word became flesh. A=C
Therefore B=C. If A = B and C = A, C = A and C = B. Jesus is God

So God is not needed? All we have to do is forgive those who wrong us? We don’t even have a fault?

That verse says God will not forgive your sins against Him, if you do not forgive your brother who wronged you.

Who did Adam offend when he ate an fruit? Who did eve wrong? Surely eating a fruit hurts no one. They sinned against God, who told them not to eat from it, God who told them to trust in His ways, to lean not on your own understanding. Because your own understanding might say, its just a fruit, and it is a delicious looking one at that, why not eat it. The Judge/God said, the consequences for that sin is death (separation from God) and the Judge ruled, and they died. The Judge is the only One that may have mercy and forgive those sins, only God can forgive sins against God.

I just am not sure of your intention here even? Are you atheist and here to prove that Jesus is not God by explaining the meaning of a few words? Why do you feel the need to reduce God and say we can do things ourselves, and be forgiven of our own merit (by forgiving others)?[/quote]

I am not the one who is reducing God. I am not bringing Him down to Earth as a MAN.

God said "I am NOT a Man that I should Repent.

And God said of Messiah "I will raise up a prophet like unto Moses, and will put MY words in His mouth, and He shall speak only the words I give him to speak.

Doesn’t sound like “equality” to me.

Call it sin, trespassed, wronged. My point being, when you break a commandment, that commandment is against a man , and God. 2 beings get wronged, an earthly one, and a heavenly one.

If the earthy one forgives you, then according to Mat 6:14, God will forgive them now. But you are still needing to be forgiven by God.

If someone wronged you, and you forgive them, then IF YOU ask, God will also forgive you. But this still requires you to ask, and God to forgive you.

And this is only through the power of Jesus’s blood. Prior to Jesus, your sin still wronged 2 beings. If you asked the earthly being forgiveness, you still needed to sacrifice an animal for heavenly forgiveness. And this was repeated every year for your sins, as the animal sacrifice just covered your sins, you weren’t really forgiven.

After Jesus’ death, you really only need to ask forgiveness once from Him, but you still need to forgive man.

It gets slightly complicated from there, as to interpretations if you don’t forgive man, are you still saved. I don’t have all those answers, but I know God knows our hearts. We are growing to be more like Him, He is merciful and loving.

The Lord’s Prayer. “Forgive our debts, as we forgive our debtors”. 2 beings sinned against, both require forgiveness.

Only God can forgive the sin committed against God…and Jesus…who is God.

God came to Earth for us because He loves us. This is the sacrifice!

But God was on Earth in the beginning. He wanted to be with us from the beginning.

He still wants to be with us, and visited man on earth in the temples.

And will one day create a new heaven and earth and come to be with us forever! He is a personal, loving, kind, merciful, gracious, just God.

He came to earth as a man to experience what we experience.

Heb 4:5 “or we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are–yet he did not sin.”

That is how much He loves us, that is the gospel!

He also never rebuked anyone for worshiping Him (if it was only as The Son OF God”) which would violate the 1st commandment…to worship God alone.

So either argument shows Him as God.

What’s inaccurate, you ask? Where to start?

Nope! Trinitarians are not triune. We believe that God is triune.

Perhaps you mean Hypostatic union. If you’re going to deliver lectures you should get the spelling right.

No. The pope is considered by Roman Catholics to be the “vicar of Christ,” not “God’s Christ on earth.” (That would be quite a claim!) And an ecumenical council formulated Trinitarian theology–the Roman Catholic Church wasn’t running the show.

But only YOU have this secret knowledge. I thought so. Sorry, but your credibility, with me anyway, is zero.

Now, what’s vile and unhinged? Your rant against the Roman Catholic church. I’m glad my own denomination is in dialog with the RC church, working on reconciliation. I’m happy my own church often has guest Roman Catholic scholars for theology lectures. And I see that even an evangelical college is able to engage in gracious dialog with Roman Catholic scholars. After our Likeness (I would have posted it but they had technical problems.)

I will give you that the trinity is a complex concept to understand. How can Jesus be God and human? I think quantum physics helps, in that something can be in motion and still at the same time… I like to think of it like Jesus was 100% human, and just had the ‘blood’ of God. Like a prince has the royal blood in him, and all the authority that comes with the throne, much like Jesus had “God’s blood” in Him which gives Him authority of God, though He is human.

I don’t know if that is “correct”, but it helps me to wrap my head around it a little bit better.

I have also heard of H20, forms or water is ice, water, and steam. The word trinity is not mentioned in the Bible, though the concepts of it that it is based on are throughout. One of them being that Jesus was 100% man, who was tempted, and 100% God, who can forgive sins against God.

This is absolutely correct! And no amount of frenzied tap-dancing can get around this simple fact.

3 Likes

Are you familiar with the Greek Grammar of the Septuagint?

[quote=“still_learning, post:79, topic:38581, full:true”]

[quote=“Theo_Book, post:77, topic:38581”]
I am not the one who is reducing God. I am not bringing Him down to Earth as a MAN.[/quote]

God came to Earth for us because He loves us. This is the sacrifice!

But God was on Earth in the beginning. He wanted to be with us from the beginning.

He still wants to be with us, and visited man on earth in the temples.

And will one day create a new heaven and earth and come to be with us forever! He is a personal, loving, kind, merciful, gracious, just God.

He came to earth as a man to experience what we experience.[/quote]

God cannot experience sin, nor temptation to do evil; neither can he lie or break his oath. And He cannot become less than God, Because it would go against His nature, because God is God by nature.

[quote=“still_learning, post:79, topic:38581, full:true”]

Heb 4:5 “or we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are–yet he did not sin.”[/quote]

Right! THAT is how we know Jesus is not and never was God. GOD cannot be tempted to sin because Sin is unrighteousness, and God cannot do unrighteousness.

[quote=“Theo_Book, post:73, topic:38581”]
Except you cannot produce a reference where anyone worshipped Jesus as God; they only worshipped Him as “The son OF God.”[/quote]

[quote=“still_learning, post:79, topic:38581, full:true”]
He also never rebuked anyone for worshiping Him (if it was only as The Son OF God”) which would violate the 1st commandment…to worship God alone.[/quote]

There was no admonition not to worship others, it was an admonition not to worship others “BEFORE ME.”(Exo 20:3)

Thou shalt have no other Gods before me"

It appeals to my sense of balance, that if Heaven, Earth, and Hell knew nothing of a trinity, who does that leave? Why, Theologians of course. Theologians require no evidence; They just require words that can be manipulated into something not inherent within their meaning.

Case in point
TRINITY ARGUMENT: All “worship” belongs to God. Jesus was worshipped, therefore, he is God.

REBUTTAL: In the Old Testament, “Worship” is translated from a Hebrew word pronounced approximately “shaw-khaw;” Which word is used in many referent passages of scripture not pertaining to worship to God, but rather to obesience such as a wife to her husband, people to their king, men to angels, and brothers to brothers.

Abraham’s servant “bowed his head and worshipped Jehovah.” [Gen 24:26]

Israel worshipped Jehovah [Exo 4:31;12:27]

Israel worshipped a molten calf [Exo 32:8]

When three men appeared to Abraham, he “bowed himself toward the ground” in greeting them. It is the same word “shaw-khaw” that pertains to worship toward Jehovah. [Gen 18:2]

Lot also "bowed himself with his face toward the ground, (Shaw-khaw) upon seeing two men approach. [Gen 19:1]

Abraham “shaw-khaw” himself to the children of Heth [Gen 23:7,12]

Isaac’s blessing upon his son Jacob, thinking he was Esau, had this to say - “Let people serve thee, and nations bow down (shaw-khaw) to thee; Be Lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother’s sons (shaw-khaw) bow down to thee…” [Gen 22:29]

Jacob (shaw-khaw) bowed himself to the ground seven times when he met his brother Esau. [Gen 33:3]

Jacobs wives handmaidens and their children (shaw-khaw) bowed themselves to Esau. [Gen 33:6]

Leah and her children bowed down (shaw-khaw) to Esau [Gen 33:7]

Joseph angered his brothers in telling his dream, wherein their sheaves of wheat bowed (shaw-khaw) to his sheaf of wheat [Gen 37:7]

Joseph had another dream in which the sun, moon, and stars (shaw-khaw) bowed down to Joseph. [Gen 37:9]

Joseph’s brothers did indeed (shaw-khaw) bow down their heads in obesience to Joseph [Gen 43:28]

Jacob told Judah “thy father’s children shall (shaw-khaw) bow down before thee” [Gen 49:8]

Moses (shaw-khaw) bowed down to his father-in-law [Exo 18:7]

Israel was told to (shaw-khaw) reverence Jehovah’s sanctuary [Lev 26:2]

Israel (shaw-khaw) bowed down to the Gods of Moab [Num 25:2] Moab’s Gods did not “correct” their error.

Joshua (shaw-khaw) did worship to the captain of the host of Jehovah [Josh 5:14]

Ruth (shaw-khaw) bowed herself to the ground before Boaz [Ruth 2:10]

David (shaw-khaw) to Jonathan [1 Sam 20:41]

David (shaw-khaw) to King Saul [ 1 Sam 24:8]

Abigail (shaw-khaw) to David [1 Sam 25:23]

King Saul (shaw-khaw) to the deceased Samuel [1Sam 28:13-14]

An Amelekite, who slew King Saul, (shaw-khaw) to David [2Sam 1:2]

Mephibosheth, son of jonathan (shaw-khaw) before David the king [2Sam 9:6]

David (shaw-khaw) Jehovah [2 Sam 12:20]

A woman of Tekoah (shaw-khaw) to david [2 Sam 14:4]

Joab (shaw-khaw) to David [2 Sam 14:22]

Kushi (shaw-khaw) to Joab [2 Sam 18:21]

Bathsheba (shaw-khaw) before David [1 Kngs 1:15]

Nathan the prophet (shaw-khaw) before David the king [1 Kngs 1:23]

King David “bowed himself (shaw-khaw) upon the bed” [1 kngs 1:47]

King Solomon bowed himself (shaw-khaw) unto Bathsheba, his mother [1 Kngs 2:19]

Jews worshipped (shaw-khaw) Ashtoreth, godess of Zidonia [1 Kngs 11:33]

Ahab worshipped (shaw-khaw) Baal [1 Kngs 16:31]

Ahaziah worshipped (shaw-khaw) baal [1 Kngs 22:53]

Sons of the prophets bowed (shaw-khaw) to Elisha [2 Kngs 2:15]

Shunamite woman bowed (shaw-khaw) to Elisha [2 Kngs 4:37]

Namman worshipped (shaw-khaw) Rimmon [2 Kngs 5:17]

Israel and Judah worshipped (shaw-khaw) the stars, and Baal [2 Kngs 17:16]

Sennacharib worshipped (shaw-khaw) Nisroch [2 Kngs 19:37]

Ornan bowed (shaw-khaw) himself to David [1 chron 21:21]

Israel worshipped (shaw-khaw) Jehovah and king David [1 Chron 29:20]

princes of Judah made obeisance (shaw-khaw) to the king [2 Chron 24:17]

Amaziah bowed down (shaw-khaw) himself to the Gods of Seir [2 Chron 25:14]

The host of heaven worshipped (shaw-khaw) Jehovah [Neh 9:6]

Servants reverenced (shaw-khaw) Haman [Esther 3:2]

all Gods worship (shaw-khaw) Jehovah [Psa 97:7]

Israel worshipped (shaw-khaw) the work of their own hands [Isa 2:8]

Magi wanted to worship (proskuneo) the newborn Jesus [Mat 2:2]

Satan requested worship (proskuneo) from Jesus [Mat 4:9]

Thou shalt worship (proskuneo) the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou worship. [Mat 4:10]

A leper worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mat 8:2]

A Ruler worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mat 9:18]

Disciples worshipped (proskuneo) the son of God [mat 14:33]

Canaanite woman worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mat 15;25]

Zebedee’s children’s mother worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mat 20:20]

Mary Magdaline and Mary worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mat 28:9]

eleven disciples worshipped (proskuneo) him [Mat 28:17]

Legion worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mark 5:7]

Soldiers, mocking, worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Mark 15:16]

Disciples worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [Luke 24:52]

True worshippers will worship (proskuneo) the father [John 4:23]

Blind man, cured, worshipped (proskuneo) Jesus [John 9:38]

Cornelius worshipped (proskuneo) Peter and was corrected [Acts 10:25]

Angels are told to worship (proskuneo) Resurrected Christ [Heb 1:6]

TRINITY ARGUMENT: Jesus was worshipped, and did not correct those who worshipped him, proving he is God.

REBUTTAL: In the New Testament, “Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, sayng, Of a truth Thou art the SON OF GOD.” [Mat 14:33] Those who worshipped him did not understand that they were worshipping God, but indeed, were worshipping his son.

Worship in the old Testament was the same as giving obeisance to any authority, whether king, judge, prince, or husband.
Worship in the New testament was limited to God and his son. Jesus was never worshipped as God, but only as the son of God.

Worship in both testaments involves yielding one’s self to another’s authority, or acknowledging another’s importance.

The Trinity argument falls under scripture.
Theo Book