Blame it on ambien.
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[quote=âstill_learning, post:78, topic:38581, full:trueâ]
Call it sin, trespassed, wronged. My point being, when you break a commandment, that commandment is against a man , and God. 2 beings get wronged, an earthly one, and a heavenly one.
If the earthy one forgives you, then according to Mat 6:14, God will forgive them now. But you are still needing to be forgiven by God.[/quote]
You have now changed the issue. The original had to do with the requirement that Men must forgive those who sin against other men. If they fail to do so, they stand in jeopardy of not being forgiven in turn, by God Himslef.
That remains true.
You have added an element to the original argument, which was true, but not a concern to the original argument, In other words, I never questioned that aspect of forgiveness.
[quote=âstill_learning, post:78, topic:38581, full:trueâ]
If someone wronged you, and you forgive them, then IF YOU ask, God will also forgive you. But this still requires you to ask, and God to forgive you.
And this is only through the power of Jesusâs blood. Prior to Jesus, your sin still wronged 2 beings. If you asked the earthly being forgiveness, you still needed to sacrifice an animal for heavenly forgiveness. And this was repeated every year for your sins, as the animal sacrifice just covered your sins, you werenât really forgiven.[/quote]
That was the issue with the Scape Goat which was released to bear the sins of the people into the wilderness, while the other was killed so as to provide the âblood of sacrifice.â
This happened every year as you pointed out, but it still served to bear the sins of the people away from being their burden; as it was good only for one year, as you correctly pointed out.
[quote=âstill_learning, post:78, topic:38581, full:trueâ]
After Jesusâ death, you really only need to ask forgiveness once from Him, but you still need to forgive man. [/quote]
If it is YOU who sin against Another, it is still required of you to seek forgiveness of him against whom you have sinned, AND ask Him who died for you also.
I know there was provision under the law for sins of ignorance, which covered those times in which a man would sin form not knowing precisely what the rule was that covered whatever it was he was doing. But it still required sacrifice as remedy; which consisted of animal life through shedding of blood.
[quote=âstill_learning, post:78, topic:38581, full:trueâ]
Only God can forgive the sin committed against GodâŠand JesusâŠwho is God.[/quote]
Aw⊠you were doing fine there, then claimed Jesus the prophet of God, is God.
I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto MosesâŠetc. (Deut 18:15_&_18)
KJV Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
I know the Holy Bible quite well. In any case, my faith states firm. I will keep everyone in my prayers. Anyway, I happen to be a theologian in the Southern Baptist Convention and the United Methodist Church.
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Preliminary note: You must learn how to use the editing tools on BioLogos comments. Your entire âquoteâ things are unbelievably confusing to read.
This makes little sense. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word never stopped being God. It just became flesh, a human being, Jesus.
Well at least we now can see where you get your understanding. You need to research the Septuagint. It was revealed by God, given to the Jews for the Gentiles when their âTIMEâ is to be fulfilled.
This also makes little sense considering what you were responding to. Here it is again;
The standard definition of the meaning âwordâ. The philosophical concept of the Logos emerged four centuries after Isaiah 28 was written, and therefore there can be no relevance between the texts you cited and the actual Logos. Again, the Logos is never mentioned in the Old Testament.
You claimed that the Logos was mentioned in Isaiah 28. But it wasnât. Firstly, the word Logos never appears in Isaiah 28. Secondly, the concept of the Logos developed centuries after Isaiah 28 was ever written, disproving your claim that the Logos was ever mentioned in Isaiah since the concept literally didnât exist then. It would be like suggesting Genesis mentions black holes
No. It is NOT. And you continual denials will not change that.
Once again, Iâll repeat myself. Pointing out facts isnât denial. Logos and Logion are the same word. Logion is just a Greek inflection of Logos. Itâs like conjugation in English.
Sorry, but it appears that, once again, you have a very weak understanding of the material youâre dealing with and with scholarship itself. You complain about scholars, or something. Except scholars donât contradict scripture much at all. They usually help explain what it means. The word âbeginningâ clearly has a meaning in John 1:1 explained by its context as the beginning, in contrast to later uses. The creation of everything, the analogy to Genesis. This is all pretty clear.
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Jesus is God the Son who also became flesh. He was and still is 100% God and 100% Man. How else could he save us?
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So, you cheated and got a good theological education!
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You do have a point there. I donât know if all those references were necessary. I concede that argument.
But how would you explain Jesus saying in Mat 28:19 âTherefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy SpiritâŠâ
He is putting all 3 from the trinity on equal levels of worship/honor. I will concede that it is not only good, but commanded by God to honor your king, unless/until they put themselves above or at the same level as God.
Is not Jesus doing that here?
I still donât get how you explain this one. Maybe you missed it?
I donât think anyone is claiming the Son is the Father. The Father didnât become flesh.
Do you believe the Son of God was in the beginning? We do know God was in the beginning, the Father and the Son. And th Spirit was there in the beginning too.
Some of your arguments seem legit and I am open minded, especially to a more easy to grasp logic than my current beliefs. So I try to get into your corner. Before I adopt a new view, I âfake accept itâ and then try to prove it wrong (with the help of others) and when I canât find fault I can begin to fully accept it. But their are too many fallacies I see. So if you truly want to convince me, you need to fix some faults I findâŠmajor faultsâŠ
So if Jesus isnât God, who exactly is He to you? Is He an angel? Was He created? How do you explain Him being âin the beginningâ?
Col 1:15-17 â
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.â
That is a bold assertion to make of anyone who is not God. âIn Him all things hold togetherâ.
[quote=âstill_learning, post:91, topic:38581, full:trueâ]
You do have a point there. I donât know if all those references were necessary. I concede that argument.
But how would you explain Jesus saying in Mat 28:19 âTherefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy SpiritâŠâ
He is putting all 3 from the trinity on equal levels of worship/honor. I will concede that it is not only good, but commanded by God to honor your king, unless/until they put themselves above or at the same level as God.
Is not Jesus doing that here?/quote]
No. remember when the Jews questioned Jesus as top the source of His authority? He responded with a question of his own -âThe Baptism of John, whence cometh it - from Heaven, or of Men?â
We know there was no âBaptizingâ of Johnâs baptism in Heaven. So the question was âWhere did authority for Johnâs Baptism come from, Heaven, or of men?â
They reasoned it out and determined they lost whichever way they responded - So Jesus did not answer their question either.
Jesus was telling them that while all Men came from Edenâs Garden âGo and be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earthâ - But He, Jesus, did not come from that source, but what He is came from heaven, i.e., speaking of Mary âthat which is gennaw (conceived) in her is of the Holy Ghost.â[Mat 1:20]
And John tells us "That which is gennaw (born) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is gennaw (born) of the Spirit is spirit.
Gennaw is a Greek word translated into nine different English words, all of which reference a part of the process of âTo cause to be.â
The following is NOT a quote of anything I wrote.
I still donât get how you explain this one. Maybe you missed it?
I donât think anyone is claiming the Son is the Father. The Father didnât become flesh.
Do you believe the Son of God was in the beginning? We do know God was in the beginning, the Father and the Son. And th Spirit was there in the beginning too.
Some of your arguments seem legit and I am open minded, especially to a more easy to grasp logic than my current beliefs. So I try to get into your corner. Before I adopt a new view, I âfake accept itâ and then try to prove it wrong (with the help of others) and when I canât find fault I can begin to fully accept it. But their are too many fallacies I see. So if you truly want to convince me, you need to fix some faults I findâŠmajor faultsâŠ
So if Jesus isnât God, who exactly is He to you? Is He an angel? Was He created? How do you explain Him being âin the beginningâ?[/quote]
Jesus plainly tells them He was âWith them in the beginningâ at least twice, possibly three times. And He was not âWith themâ at the beginning of creation. He was with them at the beginning of Johnâs gospel.
Col 1:15-17 â
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.â
That is a bold assertion to make of anyone who is not God. âIn Him all things hold togetherâ.[/quote]
It is also a bold misquote of the Greek. âall creationâ and âevery creatureâ are translations, meaning the same thing, but in either case, it is in the Genitive case, which means He belongs to the creation, i.e., He is part of the creation, firstborn from the dead; therefore the firstborn of the new creation.
Jesus brought to the world a new creation, making everything new in relation to what it previously had been.
ALL THINGS NEW BECAME
John 1:3 All things were made (egeneto) by him; and without him was not any thing made (egeneto) that was made (gegonen).
NEW CREATURE
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become (gegonen) new. -2 Cor 5:17
NEW THINGS
Isaiah 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
NEW HEAVEN - NEW EARTH
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
NEW COVENANT
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
NEW AGE
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he (ginomai) made the ages;
NEW COMMANDMENT
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. -John 13:34
REFERENCED AGAIN BY JOHN
Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. -1 John 2:7
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. -2 John 1:5
NEW COMMANDMENT
Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. 9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. 11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:8-11
NEW COMMUNION IN KINGDOM
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Fatherâs kingdom. -Mat 26:29
Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. -Mark 14:25
NEW COVENANT
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: -Heb 8:8
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. -Heb 8:13
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. -Heb 12:24
NEW CREATURE
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. -2 Cor 5:1
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. -Gal 6:15
NEW DOCTRINE
And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. -Mark 1:27
And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is? -Acts 17:19
NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. -2 Pet 3:13
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. -Rev 21:1
NEW JERUSALEM
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. -Rev 3:12
And when Jesus was raised to sit at the right hand of God in Heaven, all things were ktizw (made new) whether they be Thrones, or whether they be dominions, or whether they be principalities, or whether they be Authorities; all things were ktizw (made new) created by him, and for him.
[NOTE: ktizw has two meanings; 1)create from nothing
2)make new arrangement; re-arrange]
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. -Rev 21:2
NEW LUMP
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: -1 Cor 5:7
NEW MAN
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; -Eph 2:15
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in
righteousness and true holiness. -Eph 4:24
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: -Col 3:10
NEW NAME
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. -Rev 2:17
NEW SONG
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; -Rev 5:9
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. -Rev 14:3
NEW TESTAMENT
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. -2 Cor 3:6
NEW TESTAMENT MEDIATOR
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. -Heb 9:15
NEW TESTAMENT IN JESUSâ BLOOD
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. -Mat 26:28
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. -Mark 14:24
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. -Luke 22:20
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. -1 Cor 11:25
NEW TONGUES
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; -Mark 16:17
NEW WAY
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; -Heb 10:20
ALL THINGS NEW
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. -Rev 21:5
NEW CREATURE
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become (gegonen) new. -2 Cor 5:17
ALL THINGS NEW BECAME
John 1:3 All things were made (egeneto) by him; and without him was not any thing made (egeneto) that was made (gegonen).
So if Jesus isnât God, who exactly is He to you? Is He an angel? Was He created?
I have other questions, but to not swamp you and have you respond sporadically to other things, can you answer that?
I tell my kids I was with them in the beginning of there life. And I can tell them now I am with them. That doesnât mean I couldnât have been here before them.
Heb 1:2 âGod promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe.â.
So the Son created the universeâŠso the Son was âin the beginningâ. Like God was the crane operator and the Son was the crane, both there before the universe, The Father building it through the Son. Just like God built the âsecond universeâ through the Son. Godâs love through the Son is the second creation.
No, it was my quote. But can you answer it. It seems so simple.
John 1:1-2 and then 14
âIn the beginning was the Word(A), and the Word was with God, and the Word (A) was God (B). 2 He was with God in the beginningâŠâŠâŠ.The Word (A) became flesh/Jesus © and made his dwelling among us.â emphasis added
It really is just simple math.
Word was God, A=B.
Word became flesh. A=C
Therefore B=C. If A = B and C = A, C = A and C = B. Jesus is God
So is Jesus Spirit? And He is God? Or is Jesus flesh, so He isnât God?
I guess Iâll have to wait as to who/what you understand Jesus to be.
Are you Islam. That would explain much of your arguments.
If I go to doctor school, and graduate and work at a practice, but I do yard work at home. Am I a landscaper or doctor? Does one invalidate the other?
Jesus could have been a prophet, and God.
He raised Jesus to be a prophet, a mentor/example, a carpenter, the high priest, a healer, a blameless sacrifice, our Savior and Lord of Lords.
Name above all names? Isnât that placement above Yahweh?
Phil 2:8-11
â9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor
and gave him the name above all other names,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.â
Every knee in heaven and earth. That is a mighty title for ânot Godâ. And God approves, and is brought glory from it.
This thread has been locked because the issues raised in the OP have been addressed and re-addressed and hearing more of @Theo_Book unorthodox thoughts and cut and past Bible verse dumps on the matter donât advance the Forum goals in any way. Thank you to everyone who has participated. If you would like to continue the discussion with @Theo_Book, please feel free to do so using PM.
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