With the sound of a jet flying low today it struck me that for months now I’ve been able to remember joy but haven’t felt it except in rare odd moments. Things that used to make me ecstatically happy just make me feel OK; things that could make me feel OK leave me melancholoy. It’s a pretty heavy-duty depressive episode, so . . .
How do depression and joy interact? Shouldn’t joy punch through the gloom? Is there any biology going on here that’s important?
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There is certainly some brain chemistry behind both depression and joy. Medication can affect the experience of depression and depression affects the ability to feel joy - you do not really feel joy when you are truly depressed.
I have read some older descriptions of how brain chemistry is altered by the drugs that are used to help people with depression. I remember little about what I have read and suspect that some of those descriptions are out of date. I leave the brain chemistry to those who have better knowledge about the topic.
I too have found myself in that state over the past couple of years while on hormone blockers for my prostate Ca. They seem to rob me off all desire, not just affection. Therefore, a big sizzling steak has no more appeal than a PBJ sandwich. I tend to eat more highly spiced food, I guess just for the sensory stimulation. Thankfully, I will get off them this month. All of which is to say that the biology and chemistry is important, though I think we have incomplete knowledge of it. In my personal case, I am also taking an anti-depressant to help with hot flashes as well as the depression, and oddly enough while it keeps me from being tearful all the time, it also makes it to where tears do not come at all, which is oddly disturbing as well. It seems to level out the lows, but also seems to level out the highs of mood.
That leads to a question I ask myself, can you have joy if you do not have sorrow? I am not sure.
In any case, that all goes to say that the hormonal mix all contributes, and I would suggest that perhaps you see your doctor and perhaps ask to have testosterone levels checked (although as a doctor, we always hated that as most have normal levels and there are so many quack shacks out there prescribing it inappropriately) as well as thyroid, general chemistry, and consider an antidepressant. In addition to a good diet and exercise, you might also meditate and pray a prayer of thankfulness for the good things in your life each day. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss further.
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I agree. Some antidepressants and comparable drugs that affect brain chemistry do have two-edged effects. They may dampen feelings so that there are no deep drops down but also no peaks of joy.
Being less tearful can be felt as a positive side-effect, if you are an old-fashioned man.
I have also an experience of a wrong diagnosis where a somatic problem was treated as difficult depression. Whatever antidepressants were given to me, I had always a positive mood but my functional capacity did not get better, until the wrong diagnosis was corrected.
I have started to put more emphasis on being thankful than feeling happy. Being thankful is not so dependent on the mood and may give a positive attitude even during stressful times.
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I’ve been dealing with mood disorders for as long as I can remember and had depression very early in my childhood, so I’m not naturally inclined to be a joyful person. I’d argue joy is both a spiritual state and a mental health reality. And treating it as only one (faith) or the other (reason) is where a lot of people get stuck.
Personally I’ve found that a combination of things like a healthy diet, regular exercise (whether that’s the gym, a run, or a home workout), a consistent sleep schedule, social activities like talking to a relative when I’m able to and also maintaining a spiritual routine centered on morning prayer, all made a real difference in my mood and my sense of worth and emotional balance throughout the day.
Prayers of gratitude with occasional fasting, helps a lot when I wrestle with parasitic thoughts especially. I’ve also found that avoiding dopaminergic activities early in the morning and limiting social media use during the day is key to stay focused on caring for the inner self rather than feeding the part of me that just wants stimulation, which leaves me hollow inside. I’ve been a huge gamer and the feeling of insatisfaction, where nothing truly feels good as it used to is so relatable to me.
What also makes this subject hard to discuss is that we’re wired so differently. Like I don’t feel emotional at all during worship, but I have this inner sense of gratitude and peace that rises in those moments where my mind is, I’d say, irrationnally confident that everything will be fine because I’ve cast my burden on Jesus. I think contentment is another important thing that’s somewhat incompatible with being ego-driven, my strategy is to treat my mood like a daily ressource which helps not engaging in things I know or feel will deteriorate my general sense of self-worth.
My honest advice is to try different strategies and see what truly works for you. In my experience, tackling all three at once meaning chemistry (diet, sleep), mental health (limiting screen time, staying connected with people), and spiritual shape (devotional time in Scripture, writing your thoughts in a prayer journal, attending church gatherings even when you don’t feel emotionally inclined to) is what builds the kind of fulfillment I can only describe as God’s presence in your life.
‘So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.’
2 Corinthians 4.v16-18
One last thing, it helps to know the underlying cause of the sadness. ADHD, borderline personality disorder, and other conditions have recognizable patterns and looking for a proper diagnosis can save you literal years of spiritualizing something that also needs clinical attention. I’d say joy is a gift to keep within a cycle not a goal to chase, so don’t try to by joyful on your terms, it never truly last. When you lose it ask God to have it again and do the right things to keep it.
Take care.
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My wife has struggled with emotions as long as have known her. Her lowest ebb was more or less a mental breakdown, but throughout it her faith held and, in fact was instrumental in pulling her out. One noticeable thing was that repetition dulls the emotions What used to make her laugh or, as she put it, make her heart leap no longer seems to. I guess it is like pursuing a goal. Once you reach it you need to find the next one. Anger seems the only easy emotion and at present she gets angry very easily.
I do not think there is a glib answer, or a Universal one. Burying yourself in faith can help but there is a tension between your intent and your uncontrollable emotions. Oh that we were Vulcan? Actually no. I have always found that finding a focus for my anger helps it dissipate, be it banging a piano or fiinging darts at a dart board. Depression would seem to be harder to break. For my wife it occurs when troubles get on top of her, or she feels out of control.
I am not the best counselor because I have a view of life that is hard to duplicate. I have an unswerving view of God and life that defies most people’s understanding which I guess is a sort of blessing, but unhelpful to others.
Finding joy? Perhaps we start with pleasure first. It is easy for pleasure to be looked at as sin at worse, and selfish at best. I am not a medical professional but , as I understand it there are physical attributes to our emotions, and chemical imbalances that can interfere with them. However, drugs would appear just to dull them rather that remove emotions altogether.
The peace of God is truly beyond our understanding. You cannot force it. You cannot demand it. However, for me it is the greatest joy imaginable.
I wish you well
Richard
Edit
NB some drugs simply address imbalances rather than dull or changes sensitivity. Please do not think I am dismissing all medication.
Song by Donovan, “Happiness Runs in a Circular Motion”. This Body has it’s own Chemistry/Biology and the experimenters with Brain Drugs are trying to help it. I don’t take any Brain Drugs, I just live with my changes as they come. I just Believe when this body expires, I will be let into “Our Father’s House” as Jesus says.
@St.Roymond In spite of philosphical debates about the so-called mind-body “problem,” our minds don’t get to exist without our bodies. They are fully integrated and complex. Precisely what is causing the gloom is something you and your doctor probably need to explore.
I’ve not been through depression. However I have been through enormous physical changes (pregancy, induced menopause twice, and then the entire “all natural” menopause process) which induced enormous psychological changes. I know the feeling of having my body and its resident mind having been “taken over by aliens.” It’s lousy. And it’s not always within our control.
Riding out the the wave of deep, non-rational sadness or anger was all I knew how to do. And no, joy didn’t punch through it. It felt more like it was mocking.
In all of my experiences there was an expected end point of sorts - always wondering how altered one would be upon arrival. Depression, I think, is more nebulous.
If the gloom is not budging, it’s ok to have a conversation with your doctor.
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Lots of thoughts running through my head as this topic is relevant to me. I think one of the first things for me is to consider joy as distinct from happiness. I think Mother Theresa said, "joy is prayer, joy is strength, joy is love.” Serving others is one of the greatest ways to joy even if you don’t feel happy. She lived for decades in darkness and ultimately found it to be joyful. I find joy to be a deeper sense of contentment and peace or hope. But this doesn’t mean everyday like will be happy. I think in Catholic thought, joy is a spiritual gift that coexists with suffering and times of unhappiness. Aquinas on joy if anyone is interested:
I think our general sense of well-being or happiness is certainly tied to our bodies and our experiences. We are body and soul (the latter is the form of the former) so the physical and brain chemistry has a huge role in this. Mental illness or mental unhealthiness is not a failure of faith but a medical condition. One I’ve put off treatment for my whole life and will probably continue to do so. We think depression is a mental problem and think can fix it with faith or thoughts in our heads. But that is like trying to fix a broken leg with thoughts in our heads. Obviously we can do some things like pray regularly, eat better, dive into the word, volunteer our services, change some habits and these will help most people. But some may need medicine and it’s not weakness. Real strength for some is admitting the need.
Joy is a spiritual gift. If we lack joy I suspect this may be a faith-maturing thing. Or maybe there is so much physical noise we lose hold of it for a while.
Vinnie
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Well that gave me a tear, Phil. I’m sorry you are going through this. But I strongly agree with and endorse this sentiment:
Thanks for that video, Phil. I’ve mumbled along to that song so many times never hearing the correct words. I had no religion to lose when I became depressed but I can see how that could shake ones foundations enough to question ones faith.
My one bout with depression flattened me too. Never got any medical intervention but I found that having so much access to joy taken away made me genuinely grateful for so many things. Mostly all the joy I’d experienced up to then but it also made me question how clever or capable I was. I seemed to have lost the capacity to read a room to the point that I found small talk in the check out line at stores baffling.
For me accepting a more limited self image was part of my path back up. Being willing to start at the bottom with no expectations naturally fuels gratitude and gradually more contentment. It was horrible going down but looking back I think it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Day at a time works wonders.
I hope you and @St.Roymond find your joy and contentment as soon as may be.
Edited to share this song I just came across online which feels like it relates.
“Mad World”
(originally by Tears for Fears)
All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for their daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
Their tears are filling up their glasses
No expression, no expression
Hide my head, I wanna drown my sorrow
No tomorrow, no tomorrow
And I find it kinda funny
I find it kinda sad
The dreams in which I’m dying
Are the best I’ve ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It’s a very, very mad world, mad world
Children waiting for the day they feel good
Happy Birthday, Happy Birthday
And I feel the way that every child should
Sit and listen, sit and listen
Went to school and I was very nervous
No one knew me, no one knew me
Hello teacher tell me what’s my lesson
Look right through me, look right through me
And I find it kinda funny
I find it kinda sad
The dreams in which I’m dying
Are the best I’ve ever had
I find it hard to tell you
I find it hard to take
When people run in circles
It’s a very, very mad world, mad world
Enlarging your world
Mad world
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I get a lot of advice to change how I think, to be thankful for what I have, etc. But those are all “thoughts in my head”, right?
Everyone thinks they know better. I went out of my way to avoid such unhelpful advice that is tantamount to
“pull your socks up!”
Anyone who thinks like that has never either been there or been with someone who is there. If only it was that easy!
If it is getting you down you need help. The type of help is more personal. My wife was puled out by a new sense of purpose and belonging (She trained as a Lay Preacher.) It all depends on the reasons for the depression. There is no single fix.
Richard
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My view is there is a physical component and immaterial component to our thoughts. Abstract concepts like triangularity are certainly immaterial but our own minds are very much intertwined with our brain chemistry as we are hylomorphic composites of form and matter.
I think that advice is generally good. It’s always good to be thankful for what we have, especially as a middle class American like myself. But it’s not the whole of the matter. If we were platonic ghosts animating dead machines it would probably be accurate all the time. We should be thankful for what we have but hearing that is not what is needed many times nor is it the correct answer. Also, just because we aren’t the poorest or worst off person in the world does not mean our pain or suffering is not genuine or real. Anyone can have trauma. Given the physical nature of our brains, sometimes we need physical medicine to help us as opposed to just more immaterial abstraction.
I’m probably saying this wrong so this is what I mean. Biological ailments require biological solutions. Small AI snippet making the wording better since I’m at work:
Aquinas’s says that human cognition relies on phantasms—sensory data, images, and memories rooted in the physical brain. The intellect cannot operate in a vacuum; it abstracts from these physical phantasms. If your physical brain chemistry is compromised by stress, trauma, or illness, the intellect’s ability to smoothly process reality is directly hindered.
Telling someone to just think differently in many cases is like telling someone with a broken leg to walk
differently. We all have trauma and levels of rationality that ebb and flow with our emotions. Sometimes we need to treat the physical. As an American man in the 40s, mental health is taboo. Never going into a bathroom with my bros to cry it out. We’ve been conditioned to think or mental health struggles are a sign of weakness and so we bottle them up and suffer in silence in many cases.
Vinnie
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I catch myself doing that, or telling myself that some PTSD symptoms are just something I can overcome by pulling myself together. Dissociation episodes put the lie to that!
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Do you have any ideas how you might proceed?
I’m not asking you to tell the whole BL readership or even me what it is.
I’m only checking to see if you see a potentially helpful course of action.
Good point. I tend to be a bit OCD and have trouble with obsessive thoughts, so find it hard to change them by just willing them away. It just doesn’t work.
Sometimes, it reminds me however of the advice I have heard regarding love. Love is an action, not an emotion. We have to act loving and do acts of love and the emotion hopefully will follow. Perhaps with depression, we have to take care of our physical health through our habits and actions, and our mental health through our disciplines of meditation and prayer expressing thankfulness and contentment, in the hope that our inner darkness will lift, being pushed aside by the light outside of us. That, and drugs. 
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I got a slight adjustment in my medication. Other than that, I think a lot depends on getting a few major maintenance projects for the house taken care of; having those unfinished drags on me.
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I certainly understand that feeling. I had a project of building a deck in the rear courtyard of our house. Three quarters finished in January. I set aside a day to finish it, but the day before I broke my leg. I’m almost fully recovered, but looking out the window each day on an unfinished deck is a quite depressing experience. New target, next month 
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I know exactly what you mean.
I was 20 when I went to Bala Murghab in 2009 with the 183rd Parachute Regiment “Nembo”, 1st Battalion “Grizzano”. By end of May, being under fire was not even something “exceptional” anymore, it was just part of being there.
I remember 29 May especially: we were a couple of km outside Bala Murghab, working with the Afghan Army, when the Afghan column ahead of us got hit, then everything went to hell pretty fast: automatic weapons, mortars, RPGs, mostly coming from the higher ground.
Three of our guys got wounded, one was hit in the foot while getting out of a Lince, another got fragments in the leg, and an RPG exploded only a few metres from another one and caught him in the blast. The whole thing went on for around an hour, give or take.
What I remember most from my experience in that shitehole is how fast normal life just disappears: it goes basically like this…one minute you are hot, bored, talking bullshit with the guy next to you and thinking about food, then suddenly somebody is hurt, everybody is on the radio and your entire world becomes the next few seconds.
At 20 you are very adaptable, your brain hasn’t even fully finished the development yet, so I became very good at making that switch, the problem is when you come home, because apparently nobody tells your brain that it can switch it off again.
I came back with a pretty serious hearing loss in one ear, I can’t blame that on one specific episode because there was enough gunfire and blast exposure over there that I honestly don’t know, I mostly remember the ringing, everything sounding muffled from one side, and waiting for it to go away, but It never completely did.
The psychological stuff was harder for me to accept though because for years I treated hypervigilance and dissociation almost like a personal weakness. I mean, I had managed to function under fire, so my thinking was basically along the lines of “you’re home now, nothing is happening, get a grip”.
Then a few months after coming back something happened that made it much harder to keep telling myself that: i was in a pub with some friends, one of them started arguing with another guy and it was getting out of hand, so I stepped between them, then the other guy turned on me and put his hands on me.
After that I don’t have a clear memory of what happened, rhe next thing I remember properly is people holding me back and the fight was already over, and I had broken the guy’s jaw and one of his arms. My friends told me later that they honestly thought that if they hadn’t pulled me off him I could have killed him.
I am not proud of this. PTSD is not an excuse for hurting somebody and I don’t use it as one. There was consequences too, I ended up spending time in prison because of it.
But that episode completely shattered the idea in my head that all this could be fixed by simply “pulling myself together”, because a moment I was in a normal pub trying to stop an argument, and the next clear memory I have is being restrained and finding out what I had done. And God knows what could have happened .
For years I basically tried to beat this thing by force of will, and it didn’t work, things really started changing for me after my conversion in 2014. I don’t mean I became Christian and magically the PTSD disappeared, but faith gave me something I didn’t had before, namely a way to deal with guilt without pretending I had nothing to feel guilty about and more importantly a way to think about forgiveness, responsibility and suffering without just trying to bury everything and be “tough”.
It also made me understand that the worst things that happened to me, and the worst things I had done, didn’t have to be the final definition of who I was.
So yeah, when you say dissociation puts the lie to the whole “just pull yourself together” idea, I know exactly what you mean.
Let’s try and stay strong brother, but not through our own power, we would fail miserably. Philippians 4:13: “I can do all this through him who gives me strength.”
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Normally yes, it should punch through. Yes there is important biology, but the mind is complex and there are no easy answer there. Even fewer answers I am qualified to give.
Advice? Find people you can talk to face to face, because Internet chat can’t give you the essential human contact that can help. Listen to them, because they can help you to differentiate between normal feelings and depression.
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