I’m glad you’re a Christian and am certainly not going to try and convince you otherwise!
But this isn’t just about you. Like Christy I have also known people who have deconverted, despite being devoted followers of Christ. If they were just “never really saved” to begin with then I’m not sure how anyone has confidence of salvation, especially those of us who doubt or who are told (essentially) that our entire faith is in jeopardy if we believe the Earth has been around longer than 6,000 years.
That’s nice. Clearly not everyone shares the same experience.
No, it’s not. And you have no idea what was in their heads and hearts. If someone says they used to believe and used to love and used to obey, I’m not going to insist they are wrong about their own internal state, that’s just ignorant. Why in the world would I know better? Because… a Bible verse I memorized?
Frankly, arguing that deconversions can’t really happen to real Christians undermines its theological intent. The intent, I believe, is to have this very high view of the security of believers and the efficacy of grace. But, when you have a bunch of people who clearly were believers and aren’t any more, and you have to claim they were never really Christians to uphold some theological commitment to a human theological construct, and the effect it has on people whose faith is struggling is to make them feel even more insecure. Because if so and so (insert favorite fervent worship leader/pastor/Christian author who deconverted) was never really a Christian, than how am I supposed to know I really am one? If hearts and minds and actions are such good liars and all, we can never be secure in our salvation.
I am claiming their own testimony about their own minds is trustworthy. You are saying you know their hearts and minds better than they do themselves, based on some kind of theological logic or reasoning process. I don’t think logic is the appropriate epistemological tool here for determining the state of someone else’s mind, especially if it directly contradicts the experience of the one person with actual access to the mind in question.
Deconversion is as complex as the humans who do it. I have deep insight into just a handful of deconversion stories, one of which is my own. Watching this conversation, with @Dale providing examples of the grotesque results of proof texting in the absence of human kindness, is to me an unneeded reminder of some of the most important reasons that I left the faith. Among the many benefits of disclaiming the belief system is this one: I can call @Christy and @Laura friends, and explain why, without the need to adopt @Dale and his god.
I am sorry but this is symptomatic of the Biblical fundamentalist standpoint. It happens when the importance and accuracy of Scripture becomes more important than humanity itself. But it is actually a minority view, although often vociferous as if it is unquestionable.
Richard, thanks, you are kind. I do know that views like @Dale’s are not those of everyone who claims to be Christian, hence my friendship with others here. Yes, the corrosive effect of Christian faith on the humanity of people was a big influence on my faith, and I will never go back. But there are many believers among my loved ones and friends, to remind me that while faith is not a net benefit to humanity (I would guess the opposite), it is not universally damaging and more importantly, it’s a big part of the lives of the people I love and live for.
Dale, stop it with the one-liners back and forth. Either take the time to make a substantive point, or don’t hit post. I’m just going to start deleting every post of yours that is just a sentence, because they almost never further the conversation. This isn’t Facebook, it’s a discussion forum.
I should take some responsibility here. I should not have entered this conversation. I will leave now while inviting you all to think about what a conversation like this looks like. You are talking to each other about what I and others believe and how we came to believe it. There is much humanity and decency here, so I am not saying that the whole conversation has been dehumanizing. But the mere fact that this is a topic worthy of discussion–seriously, think about it–is something that unbelievers are likely to find toxic and grotesque.
This is something I have feared for a long time. That people would think as you do. But, I have never been able to convince biblical fanatics that their faith could be corrosive. I would hope that you could see that it is not the faith that is at fault. If there is a God, and obviously I believe there is, then following His ideals should be beneficial and productive. All I can say, in its favour, is that I could not live without God, and my faith is the expression of this. And part of that faith is the underlying principle of Love as expressed in 1 Corinthians 13. That some professing Christians can warp their beliefs into overriding that Love and turning it into disdain and judgementalism is a bigger damnation on Christianity than any notion of Adam’s fall.
Perhaps one day you will be able to see past the minority and see the benefits of faith as opposed to the selfish dehumanising of fundamentalism. It is ,after all, the fundamentalists of Islam that have caused such destruction to that faith in recent years.
You laugh, but it is no laughing matter. Biblical literalism and dogmatism is probably the greatest threat to Christianity since Nero. If only you could see what your views mean to the objects of your scorn and wrath. And how destructive it is to the faith. But like the JWs and their home visiting, you will not be swayed by people like me.
Perhaps you have never read your assertions from the viewpoint of those affected by them? Not real Christians? How would you like that to be said of you? Or does the words “do as you would be done by” not mean anything to you?
Speaking as one who has been called everything from the Devil incarnate to the anti-Christ for my so called “universal” viewpoint.
Before you make these assertions you should review the from the opposing viewpoint and understand their ramifications.
I see that my question caused a lot of trouble. Seeing that many here have actually deconverted actually made me somewhat doudbtfull again. I can delete this post if someone wants.
)
)