Deconversion and The Bible

Very good point. Randal Rauser’s “What’s So Confusing About Grace” runs on the same lines.

C S Lewis, in “Surprised By Joy,” wrote that his fear of losing his salvation led him to eventually rejecting the faith as a child. I struggled for nearly a year with the same fear at age 20–I drove my parents and pastor nuts with the questions. Part of that was Hebrews, which I agree is about the potential of leaving the faith.

On the other hand, maybe what we miss is God’s character. Liam had said that Arminians and Calvinists may be surprised at the actual answer to their differences, and maybe there’s something there. It seems that if God is really just, He has to be better --not worse–than our own parents. My parents gave me the benefit of the doubt (to allude to Greg Boyd’s terrific work). They knew that I was imperfect, and frequently failed unintentionally. Could it be that doubt and deconversion work the same way?. God, after all, “knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.” He knows that through great struggle with truth, some of us come to the conclusion that we don’t see His evidence. I have to believe that God would not blame us for not being able to believe against the evidence. Is He to punish us for using the brains He gave us?

There are other instances that imply repentance is more important than knowledge; an attitude of the heart, more than understanding. After all, He has decreed that many of mankind are born into Hindu, Buddhist, and other religious (or non religious) families, and never even hear the message of salvation. Other children never have the ability to fully understand the message because they are struggle with mental challenges.

George Macdonald (“Unspoken Sermons”) and Lewis ( “Mere Christianity”) both argue that God never gives up on redeeming his children–whether born in or outside the faith–for all of eternity. Even those who are saved, He purifies for all eternity, to be more like Him; and for those who die not knowing the message, He also gives the opportunity for learning more about Him after death. They felt that even for those who go, as in “Great Divorce,” to Hell knowingly, He offers repentance. It’s a beautiful picture of one way God, being truly just, may work.

At any rate, there are many good reasons we may doubt and leave the faith. One of the strongest is to believe that God is unjust. As Rachel Held Evans wrote, once you believe God is unjust, the impetus to find him drops significantly. But as Austin Fisher wrote, it’s frequently not doubt, but the perception that God doesn’t allow us to doubt, that causes many to leave the faith. Focusing on God as the ultimately truly just One may clear up some of the questions of what happens to those of us who struggle with doubt.

Thanks.

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Interesting bit about CS Lewis. Hebrews does talk about losing salvation, but the rest of the Gospels are not really that clear either.

For example, are people saved by faith in Christ, as John 3:16 teaches, or by also repenting from sins? Is repentance required for justification? This too is a contentious topic.

John MacArthur even teaches that one cannot be saved unless they make Jesus their Lord, meaning they are committing to and following through on that commitment to following Jesus’ teachings.

So, before one worries about losing salvation they need to first get it.

Per my understanding, both Calvinists and Arminians are already very close. Calvinists believe God predestines to salvation those whom he sovereignly chooses, whereas Arminians believe God foreknows how people will live and chooses based on works.

But Calvnism has, as I pointed out yesterday, in the temporary faith, which is very close to Arminan idea of someone having faith but not entering heaven because their faith was not lasting.

Truth be told, the message is confusing even for those without mental challenges.

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Totally. Rauser’s book does that quite humbly. I appreciate your note there. Which is, I think, why getting back to the idea that God would have to be ultimately just (and I expect to see lots of atheists in Heaven eventually–eventually, all earth’s population, because it really depends on reconciliation with God, not knowledge–) helps me. Not that I know or understand it. However, it seems that if truly worth being God, He has to be better, not worse, than my own earthly parents.
Thanks.

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It does seem that people are over thinking this. The Devil is definitely in the details here.
The Christian faith is simple, but many try and make it complicated with additional conditions and / or stipulations.
In Essence the Christian faith is that God will forgive any sin that is confessed and repented. And, if we have no sin then we are right with God, until the next sin.
There is nothing more to it than that. If you are living according to the principles of faith laid down in 1 Corinthians 13 then you are not sinning, therefore you are right with God.
All this mumbo jumbo about salvation and sanctification is church speak.
Either you are right with God, or you are not. Period.

Why make it any more complicated that it has to be?

The forgiveness comes from the death of Christ but even that is a piece of information too much. All we need to know is that God does forgive. And believe it.

Richard

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Dear Richard,
I agree in principle with you, but please add Matt 5:44-48 to your set of requirements. Sinning and asking for forgiveness needs to have a goal in mind, not just an endless loop.
Best Wishes, Shawn

I am sorry but I do not see how this adds to 1 Cor 13? Love supersedes enmity or disagreement. It is not about what the person believes, or even what you believe about a person, it is about unconditional love. Is there a goal other than to be what God requires of us?

Richard

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That is the preface to Lewis’ argument in Mere Chrostianity, as well.Mere C.S. Lewis: Jesus meant what he said: Be perfect
Mere C.S. Lewis: What Jesus meant when he said, “Be Perfect”

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I think you need to understand people and scripture.

Oh, and ‘election’, ‘predestined’, ‘foreknew’, ‘chosen’, etc. are all in God’s word, unless they’ve been cut out. Maybe ignored?

Or just maybe, like with human origins, devout Christians can read the same passages and come to different conclusions?

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Not without changing the meanings of the words – they’re pretty explicit. I guess I would refer you back to the other conversation:

Hmm. Not sure that’s a standard “essence of Christianity” description. That makes a mess of atonement theology, in my humble opinion. Christianity is about where your identity is found, and that is what determines your relationship with God, not your confessed/unconfessed sin status. If you are in Christ, you are right with God.

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We are still Father’s children, regardless of the status of our ‘confessedness’. We may not have his smile, but we have not been abandoned. It seems likely to me that we more or less sin continuously, unaware, compared to Jesus’ righteousness. Is our attention always where it ought to be and our attitude perpetually thankful? Mine isn’t.

I suppose you might infer from that that I am perpetually feeling guilty. Not at all, because all my guilt has been absolved at the cross. Neither is it a license to sin, however, because if we have truly been transformed and our hearts belong to God, we will not want to cause grief to the Lord whom we love.

Maybe there is a difference between practical and theoretical / intellectualTheology?

Richard

Context is important for developing theology. Ripping a selection of words out of context and defining them does not force them to mean a certain thing in context or create one particular big picture, and that is what Christians often disagree on.

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No ripping required – the meanings are not changed and are quite clear in context. The Good Shepherd finds his lost sheep, he knows who they are and they were his ‘from the beginning’.

In the Bible, faith is not just “believing” the right doctrines. It is an active allegiance to God, demonstrated by obedience.

I have known Christians who have deconverted, so saying certain verses are just hypothetical does not go with what I have seen with my own eyes. Personally I think it’s pretty insulting to say they were never really Christians. Sure they were, by every definition I can find in the Bible. They confessed Jesus as Lord. They lived their lives in accordance with Christian ethics and values. But at this point, they also have clearly changed their mind and no longer confess Jesus as Lord and no longer live according to Christian ethics and values, so I also think it is pretty insulting to insist that God keeps them in the flock against their will, and they are just “backslidden” but still “saved.” They have clearly switched their allegiance from Christ to other loyalties.

I don’t think any Christians ever need to worry about losing their salvation. It’s never in jeopardy because you mess up or have doubts or struggle to believe certain things. Grace is big and expansive for everyone who wants it. But if you want to walk away from it all, you can. But it’s a willful act of rejection, not a failure to live up to some standard of faith or righteousness.

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That, and more.

I am my Father’s child – I have no choice. And what could I want more and what possible reason could I have for rejecting him?

I have, too, and no one is trying to insult anyone. But it is evidence that their Christianity was all in their heads and that their hearts were lying to them. Hearts are deceptive, you know. :slightly_smiling_face: