Deconversion and The Bible

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

We are told to test ourselves. A transformed heart can be identified by its desires.

All we need to want (check out that subtitle , an apparent oxymoron ):

Desiring God, Revised Edition: Meditations of a Christian Hedonist - Kindle...

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@SuperBigV

In other words, they don’t doubt that born people are saved, they doubt whether they themselves were born.

Sensitive young Christians don’t need to be told that a believer can lose their salvation (especially since it is a lie), they need to be taught to examine their hearts, and if they pass the test, rest on the assurances, as noted above.

They also need to be taught that the most frequent mandate in the Bible is “Don’t be afraid” or one of its several variations – “Be anxious for nothing”, “Fret not”, etc.

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear…

It’s not our perfect love! It is our Father’s, and he only does what is good for both him and us. So whenever I catch myself being anxious about ANYTHING, I can go crawl up on Father’s lap even when court is in session in the throne room, so to speak, and his strong arms will comfort me and shield me.

[Christy (Christy Hemphill)]

@NickolaosPappas

So we know the bible tells us that whoever leaves from the faith he was never a Christian. Now what part of this is true? So all those who deconverted from the faith werent really christians?

Only if you are a Calvinist. Or a good Baptist, but I’m a rather bad one, so I don’t buy it. No one can snatch you out of the Father’s hand, but if you are bound and determined to jump out, you can. I’ve never heard a satisfying “persistence of the saints” explanation of Hebrews 6:4-8.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@RichardG

Neither shows a lack of original faith bit it might show a lack of understanding

A lack of understanding that remains in most those still in the church they left, no doubt.

@Dale

Right on.

You should attribute that to the Bible not to me. Especially since my post was disagreeing with the your interpretation of that text.

@SuperBigV

I’m currently an Atheist but used to be a Christian. As part of my experience, I remember doubting my own salvation and fretting over that. This experience, as was explained to me, meant I was a true believer because non-Christians would not worry about being saved.

LOL Oh boy!

Frankly I think this whole OSAS and perseverence of the saints is the argumentum in terrorem again in disguise. Your struggle with doubt is supposed to collapse under the fear that you are not saved after all and going to hell. Like Pascal’s wager it is a purchase of salvation at the price of intellectual integrity with entitlement as a bonus.

I am a Christian for one reason only. I think it is correct. But I don’t think it buys me one single thing. I don’t think it gives me any more advantage in the “final judgement” over the atheist. Salvation does not come from knowledge! Not according to gospel of Jesus and Paul.

Contrary to what so many so called Xtians believe, salvation is not one of their accomplishments in life. Salvation is not and never was “theirs.” Nobody is ever entitled to salvation.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

In regards to salvation since you mentioned it. If an unveliever can be saved what is the point beign a believer then ?i mean i know that faith is a much more complex thing. But the main reason we believe is to not go in hell

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Christy

explanation of Hebrews 6:4-8.

It’s a hypothetical, “…in the case of those who have once been enlightened…” And in context with the rest of the list of assurances, it can be quickly concluded that there are no such cases.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@mitchellmckain

You should attribute that to the Bible not to me.

I did, with the double quote bars, but not explicitly enough.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@mitchellmckain

argumentum in terrorem

Hardly. It is an appeal to rest in Father’s strength and not our own.

Arminianism is what should be frightening – what a nasty thing to tell a young believer, that their salvation rests entirely on them and their own strength and perseverance.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@NickolaosPappas

In regards to salvation since you mentioned it. If an unveliever can be saved what is the point beign a believer then ?

What is the point of believing in evolution? Because it is correct. Why else would you believe something.

But perhaps you are talking about all the other things that Christians do… baptism, go to church, obey the commandments, read the Bible, pray… If any tell you that they do these things to be saved, that doesn’t work any better than an exchange for believing – salvation by works isn’t the gospel taught by Jesus and Paul either. There is a reason for doing each of these things, explained in the Bible, and obtaining salvation isn’t it.

What did Jesus and Paul teach? Salvation by the grace of God.
Matthew 19:25 When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But people want to know what they should therefore do? Does this salvation by grace business say anything about that? Yes it does. It means we should have faith. God asks us to have faith. And what are we to have faith in? In Jesus yes. In God to be sure. But I think more to the point than a collection of names and dogmas is that we should have faith in what is good and right. Faith in the good things because these are of God, and faith in what right because that is where you find God also. Or to put it another way, as many atheists have done, we should do what is good and right for its own sake. This I believe is what it means to have the law of God written on our hearts.

So why is it salvation by the grace of God rather than salvation by faith? Because if you are doing these things for some reward then it isn’t really faith at all. Faith means giving yourself over into the hands of God and leaving it all to Him.

And how do we know if we have faith? Is there some measure of this? There is indeed. For faith is made alive and real by works. Faith is in what you do. And what sort of things? Are we talking about baptism, going to church, obeying the commandments, reading the Bible, praying? Not first and foremost. No. What really tops the list here and making faith most real are the things we do for those in need: Isaiha 1, Matthew 25, James 1:27. Doing what is good and right for its own sake is not about religion but about helping people.

That is what I see being taught in the Bible anyway.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

So are atheists or really any other (i.e not christian)capable of receiving that grace? Thats what im basically asking.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@NickolaosPappas

So are atheists or really any other (i.e not christian)capable of that grace? Thats what im basically asking.

It’s not their grace, it’s God’s grace, and he gives it freely to those who accept it.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@NickolaosPappas

So are atheists or really any other (i.e not christian)capable of receiving that grace? Thats what im basically asking.

The only capability of relevance is that of God.

The gift is freely offered to all. And accepting a gift does not change the gift into wages earned. That is absurd.

And accepting the gift is not code for believing all this stuff somebody says you have to believe. That is just turning the gospel of salvation by Grace on its head into a gospel of salvation by works of the mind. According to Paul in Romans 10, that is not faith but legalism.

To be sure we can ask whether we see more faith in Christians or in atheists? Or… maybe more to the point… we can ask whether God sees more faith in Christians or in atheists? I am not so sure the answer to the latter is what the Christians would like to believe.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@mitchellmckain

And how do we know if we have faith? Is there some measure of this.

We can also measure our faith by examining our hearts, to discover what they most desire, and by monitoring what we pay attention to. Are our eyes are turned inwards and focusing on ourselves or are they looking to God and desiring his honor. What do we most desire?

I had read through Psalm 18:1 I don’t know how many times before I realized that I had never said it for myself.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

So at first my prayer was, “Do I love you, Lord? Help me to love you.” It wasn’t too long before I could say, “I love you, Lord. Help me to love you more.”

[RichardG (Richard Gillett)]

@Dale

Anyone that leaves demonstrates that their heart has not been transformed. Please reread the list above and tell me which are reversible.

I think you need to understand people , not literal Scripture. Oh, and the meaning of Free will, and that God respects it.

Richard

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

So who can be saved then ?

[Boscopup]

System removed the quote of a whole post, but this is in response to the question “So who can be saved then?”

Everyone who accepts God’s gift of grace. Belief is required, so an atheist is not saved. Read through the book of Acts and see how people became Christians. It’s a good study.

One can fall away, but it’s not based on one sin or something small. It’s a total walking away from God. God’s promises can’t be taken away, but we can choose not to accept those promises.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

So basically is one that leaves the faith saved?( i.e a Christian deconverts and becomes an Buddhist for example)

[Boscopup]

I don’t think one who leaves the faith is saved, no.

[SuperBigV (Vlad K. I'm an Agnostic Atheist)]

@Dale

Sensitive young Christians don’t need to be told that a believer can lose their salvation (especially since it is a lie), they need to be taught to examine their hearts, and if they pass the test, rest on the assurances, as noted above.

One thing that ultimately drew me away from the faith is realization that the basic salvation teaching is not very clear.

Consider the following passages:
John 3:16, probably cited most frequently:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Pretty clear in what it says, but a bit confusing as to what it means to believe in the Son (Jesus). Believe in him how? For what? Is it enough to believe that Jesus was God’s Son or must you also accept that he is part of the Trinity, equal to the Father? These questions cause doubt even for believers who know this verse by heart.

But then, consider also John 5:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Well, now rising to live vs condemnation has nothing to do with beliefs! It’s all about doing evil or not doing what is evil.

These are just two examples but there are plenty of others.