Deconversion and The Bible

Not to mention Paul’s Romans 11 discourse warning the “grafted-in” branches about their smug attitudes toward the cut-off native branches … If God could adopt you into the family - how much more can He welcome back the native prodigal son? (my paraphrasing here…) These would be incoherent ramblings on Paul’s part if people cannot fall away.

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That’s the clincher for me. Of course, it’s possible to obey commandments as a matter of duty without actually believing in Jesus, but if someone who has accepted the gospel falls away and suddenly they “were never one of us,” it sounds like revisionist history to me, that can cast suspicion over everyone else and sow insecurity in our own hearts.

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So would God let someone leave from him? He is calling people to him. He doesnt make them go. To respond or not to that call is fine but then leaving from it?

God has given us free will. We can choose to leave. Adam and Eve certainly did.

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Yes, I do believe God is calling people to him. You’re right that he doesn’t make us go, but he also doesn’t make us stay, though he gives us his spirit. I don’t always understand it either, but that’s the nature of free will. If God forced us to love him, we would be robots. I’m reminded of Jesus weeping over the people of Jerusalem (Matthew 23:37, emphasis mine):

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

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The Bible does say things like this, though:

      [u]The Christian’s Confidence[/u]

How about reading the whole thing…

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know.

These are not simply people who left Christianity but people who became opponents of Christianity. Furthermore, I think the context is one in which Christians were being martyred. We see this in the talk of love for your brother rather than murdering them like Cain. In this context, I think it is understandable that John doubted that they had an authentic experience.

The whole question of perseverance of the saints is utterly lacking in any kind of faith. Paul says faith does not even ask the question of who is saved and who is damned. But asking if you can lose your salvation as if this was ever something you were owed and entitled to goes way beyond that to something far worse.

Romans 10:5 Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on the law shall live by it. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

Those making up rules to say they are saved and others are damned are appealing to legalism (righteousness based on law) as a justification for entitlement. But taking this upon themselves in such outrageous arrogance, not only speak for God but to judge for God, can only demonstrate that they do not really believe in God at all. So they feel free to change God into nothing more than a tool of rhetoric for the manipulation of others.

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Well it makes a change from discussing OSAS. IME people leave the faith because God does not match up to their expectations, or something happens that they think God should have stopped. Neither shows a lack of original faith bit it might show a lack of understanding

Richard

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Anyone that leaves demonstrates that their heart has not been transformed. Please reread the list above and tell me which are reversible.

They may have been ‘believists’ and attracted to and affirming Christian doctrine, but they never were transformed. That is why there are such severe warnings in the New Testament, because our hearts can deceive us, and there were those even in the early Church.

Right on.      

Perseverance is a birthday or adoption gift when a person is reborn, adopted. If someone does not persevere, they were never transformed.

May I ask why does this question interest you?

I’m currently an Atheist but used to be a Christian. As part of my experience, I remember doubting my own salvation and fretting over that. This experience, as was explained to me, meant I was a true believer because non-Christians would not worry about being saved.

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This is a Calvinist understanding of the perseverance, but there is the pesky ‘temporary faith’ concept, where you may persevere in the faith for a little bit, but then ultimately fall away and prove you were not a true Christian.

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“OSAS” is meant as a pejorative by most who use it, but in fact, it is the truth. Once born, always born; once born again, always born again.

I used to hold a Free Grace view when I was a believer, so I am familiar with OSAS. Calvinism technically supports OSAS, but Calvinism places too strong of an emphasis on the saving faith, where the person, in my past experience, doesn’t doubt OSAS per se, but doubts whether they have the saving faith.

In other words, they don’t doubt that born people are saved, they doubt whether they themselves were born.

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We are told to test ourselves. A transformed heart can be identified by its desires.

All we need to want (check out that subtitle :flushed:, an apparent oxymoron :grin:):

Sensitive young Christians don’t need to be told that a believer can lose their salvation (especially since it is a lie), they need to be taught to examine their hearts, and if they pass the test, rest on the assurances, as noted above.

They also need to be taught that the most frequent mandate in the Bible is “Don’t be afraid” or one of its several variations – “Be anxious for nothing”, “Fret not”, etc.

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear…

It’s not our perfect love! It is our Father’s, and he only does what is good for both him and us. So whenever I catch myself being anxious about ANYTHING, I can go crawl up on Father’s lap even when court is in session in the throne room, so to speak, and his strong arms will comfort me and shield me.

Only if you are a Calvinist. Or a good Baptist, but I’m a rather bad one, so I don’t buy it. No one can snatch you out of the Father’s hand, but if you are bound and determined to jump out, you can. I’ve never heard a satisfying “persistence of the saints” explanation of Hebrews 6:4-8.

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A lack of understanding that remains in most those still in the church they left, no doubt.

You should attribute that to the Bible not to me. Especially since my post was disagreeing with the your interpretation of that text.

LOL Oh boy!

Frankly I think this whole OSAS and perseverence of the saints is the argumentum in terrorem again in disguise. Your struggle with doubt is supposed to collapse under the fear that you are not saved after all and going to hell. Like Pascal’s wager it is a purchase of salvation at the price of intellectual integrity with entitlement as a bonus.

I am a Christian for one reason only. I think it is correct. But I don’t think it buys me one single thing. I don’t think it gives me any more advantage in the “final judgement” over the atheist. Salvation does not come from knowledge! Not according to gospel of Jesus and Paul.

Contrary to what so many so called Xtians believe, salvation is not one of their accomplishments in life. Salvation is not and never was “theirs.” Nobody is ever entitled to salvation.

In regards to salvation since you mentioned it. If an unveliever can be saved what is the point beign a believer then ?i mean i know that faith is a much more complex thing. But the main reason we believe is to not go in hell