J. Polkinghorne pairs and contrasts two concepts in relation to a new heavens and a new earth: temporality and transience. Temporality is a term he states will continue, albeit likely differently than in this world, into the world to come, but notes that transience applies only to the present world.
But how to have temporality without transience? In physics transience boils down to the second law of thermodynamics, so to exclude transience means getting rid if that law – which leads to the question . . .
Could the universe function without entropy increasing?
No. The chemistry in your body and cells would go completely haywire without the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Something as simple as the Sun radiating heat would go completely haywire. Rivers would spontaneously flow uphill.
To our understanding, entropy is the only physical principle that is not reversible, and is thus the arrow of time. This leads to much speculation at the penumbra of physics, including where did order come from to begin with?
You can’t win, you can’t break even, and you can’t get out of the game.
What if it was you can’t win, but you can break even? i.e. entropy can’t decrease, but it doesn’t have to increase? or (if I understand the Britannica article right ΔS can equal zero?
Parts of a system can decrease in entropy as long as the system as a whole sees an increase in entropy.
What I am talking about is if the 2nd law of thermodynamics was false where a closed system can spontaneously decrease in entropy. If this were the case then water in the ocean would start spontaneously splitting into hydrogen and oxygen, the reverse of the usual reaction. The same would happen to chemical reactions in your cells, such as oxygen and carbon dioxide spontaneously producing carbohydrates without any energy input.
You can pump water uphill in the normal world, so it isn’t contrary to gravity. The laws of thermodynamics say that you have to input energy to move water uphill, but if those laws no longer apply then no energy is needed.
Assuming that the molecules of water (or anything else) would hold. What happens at every level, if matter no longer operated in ways described in the second law?
Complete chaos happens. It would be hard to even imagine such a universe. A metal bar could go from an even 22C across its entire length, and then the next second it could be 300C at one end and -300C at the other for no apparent reason. Salt in the oceans could suddenly concentrate into one place. You could get colder as you walk towards a fire. It would be Bizarro world.
Deadly indeed … suddenly the O2 and N2 that was well mixed in the room sorts itself out into O2 all on one side, N2 all on the other side … woe to you if you were on the wrong side!
And, ironically, It would be that bizarre and capricious world that would actually seem to imply (most strongly) some will of a capricious designer! And yet, it is totally opposite the universe we actually live in! And opposite of what scriptures observe too … God causes sunshine and rain to fall … widely … where it’s needed / wanted / deserved as well as where it’s not.
If you are asking what the world would be like without the 2nd law of thermodynamics you are essentially asking what would happen if statistical behavior did not hold. Based on my basic level of knowledge, I think thermodynamics is essentially a statistical theory.
I was under the impression that thermodynamics was more classical than quantum, but could be wrong.
Unlike forces which we currently treat as fundamental, thermodynamics are emergent. Also unlike forces which have seemingly arbitrary parameters and ratios, thermodynamics is not parameterized. It comes down to how many ways stuff can be arranged. So while you could create alternate universes by fiddling with the constants of the electroweak force, or speed of light, there is no real dial to turn on entropy. A physical universe without thermodynamics might be an illogical concept, let alone physically bizarre.
The book of revelation describes a new heaven and new earth for the former (sin corrupted) ones have passed away (because God destroys them).
Christ came to save humanity from the wages of sin is physical (and spiritual) death…as forecast in the old testament tabernacle & sanctuary.
Adam and Eve were tempted and fell into sin thus brining corruption, death, suffering, weeds & tares, into this world. This is what caused entropy…prior to sin, i dont agree there was any such thing. I guess im also arguing that in our reality, sin has corrupted what we observe too. If the heavens declare the glory of God, they also declare the courge of satan and his angels…because the war in heaven clearly wasnt on this earth, satan and his angels were cast out of heaven…so the war “up there” if you like, also impacted the universe we observe.
If anything ive said above isnt biblical, let me know…im open to theological critcism on this one.
I can see one criticism…creation from nothing suggests chaos initially and that God brings order to chaos.
You are using a common colloquial (mis)understanding of entropy. None of the things you list are tied to entropy in any meaningful scientific sense. Dogs don’t die at a younger age than humans because they experience more entropy. Weeds growing is no different than any other plant growing, at least thermodynamically. A messy room doesn’t necessarily have more entropy than a tidy room. Disorder in science and thermodynamics is often quite different than how the general public pictures it.
If entropy didn’t exist during the time period that you describe then life as we know it could not exist during that time. Life requires entropy in order to exist. Entropy is needed in order for the planet Earth to stay together.
Speaking as a pre-schooler in thermodynamics, I don’t think the theological concept you understand as “entropy” is really the same thing as entropy related to thermodynamics.
There are some helpful explanations here: Entropy - Wikipedia . I find some of the textbook definitions useful.
However, I think the order/chaos dichotomy is not that helpful, particularly as the words “order” and “chaos” carry valuative judgements in their meanings, AND entropy in itself really does not imply disorder. Think, for example, of the results of chemical reactions involved in digestion and conversion of digested materials into physical work of the body’s organs. This strikes me as a very orderly process with amazing results! If there were no entropy, those chemical reactions would not do what you need them to. If they are reversible, they would kill you. And that assumes you or anything at all could exist without all the single-direction processes that are needed for there to be stuff, and for that stuff to do anything.
I think the explanation of “Energy Usefulness” is more helpful, at least to me. Most of the article is too technical for me to grasp completely, but even from the technical sections there is stuff I get.
I remember sitting in Chemistry class in 11th grade (17 yo) the day Mrs. Connors introduced the 2nd Law and entropy. I think I cried, because I did understand the lesson and the implications of it – all the energy within a system will eventually have been employed and will no longer be available to get new stuff done.
That really isn’t the same thing as the results of sin and the fall. Or of God bringing order in his act of creating from the chaos which existed before.
Reading Genesis chapters 2 and 3 describing Paradise it is a supernatural place where the Laws of Physics don’t count opposed to the (our) natural place where A&E landed after they rebelled. Meaning, it is likely the second law of thermodynamics did not exist in Paradise.
