Five hours? Whoa ā something that long should be at least a three-parter!
Very well explained ā and it explains a lot itself.
Yes and no ā the Noah account is mythologized history, which shows in its structure and some of its content.
Something that remained true even into the time of Christ.
Thatās like saying that a chefās recipes for fine dining would be discredited if proof got found that there was no breakfast menu ā thereās no logical connection at all.
How about you explain how any Bible verses at all have any bearing whatsoever on Ptolemaic astronomy and geocentrism!
Where has anyone said anything about a ālocalized Creationā¦ā account? How do you come up with these utterly irrational ideas?
So do you think the sun is 430 times bigger in the sky than the moon or are they about the same size so the moon can cover nearly all the sun in an eclipse leaving only the corona of the sun uncovered?
Do you think the ancient Jews believed an electron was flat or that the electron was a globe?
Which one do you think they believed?
The answer is neither because they did not think of the earth as a planet at all. They had no more idea of the earth as a planet than they had any idea of the electron.
Iāve only watched a few of her videos and they have been outstanding. Iāll try to catch this one soon.
If we think that the ancestors could walk and either dispersed as practically all mammals do, or lived in nomadic groups, it is quite selfevident that some individuals and groups moved out of Africa. How many times that happened is something that is practically impossible to know but there seems to be some evidence of multiple cases - either fossils or DNA signs.
If we assume that the distant ancestors of humans lived in Africa during some distant era, then all human species (genus Homo) found outside Africa must be offspring of hominids that left Africa at some point of time. It is logical to assume that adaptation and splitting of evolutionary lineages continued also in Eurasia, so we could say that the origin of humans living outside Africa is in Africa AND in Eurasia - both are true, not just one of the alternatives. Assuming that humans within and outside Africa are closely related (DNA shows they are), there must have been some mixing of genes between Africa and Eurasia in the past - movements to both directions.
Yes. Showing that the founder of Christianity didnāt exist would have absolutely no effect on the validity of Jewish mythology that existed centuries before Jesus did.
So again. I feel like youāre doing something that you quite often do and thatās dance around questions and playing games. Iāve learned thatās just how you are at times.
So back to where we were. And itās where I will always go.
Again, Iāll repeat this as many times as you need to understand it. I donāt care what we think earth means. I donāt care what we think the land means. We do know that ancient Jewish people had their own set of beliefs. Such as the landā¦. Often translated as the earth.
Do you think they viewed the earth as a globe or did they view it as a flat disc shape?
Again, does not matter if they had no concept of a planet, electrons and so on. Just because a third time is a charmā¦ā¦ againā¦ Mr. Mckain, didā¦ā¦ ancientā¦ā¦Jewishā¦ā¦peopleā¦ā¦believe the land they lived on was a small part of a globe or was it a something like a flat disc?
Secondly, and againā¦ā¦ just to highlight, it does not matter what we think about the sunā¦. It does not matter how the sun appearsā¦ā¦ does not matter. It does not matter how it appeared to them either. Just asking, what was thought to be a very simple idea that just seems quite challenging to you.
Did they think the sun was far bigger than the earth or did they think the sun was a small light? Did they think the earth rotated around the sunā¦. Or did they think the sun rotated around earth?
If you canāt answer the question, then Iām sorry that itās just going over your head. Personally, I think you can and do understand the very 5th grade level question but that youāre just in one of your moods, which seems to be your default, and you refuse to answer and play these silly games of yours. If for whatever reason, you canāt answer, I am not going to respond. Iāll just like the post and block you love Iāve blocked several others. Iāll engage in conversation with anyone who seems semi intelligent or at least very interested in real discussion. But I donāt have time or desire in my life for those outside of it. For fact, I know I just said I would wait for your response but honestly, I just donāt care anymore because itās been a pattern for years now. Almost every discussion we have, while polite, is just a waste of time. So best luck Mitch and happy holidays.
Mostly through the intro. Probably wonāt get to the whole thing, but even her intro is excellent.
So nothing to do with fossils or geology? If so, why point to the article in the opening post?
No doubt, indeed. Just look at the orangutan. From my understanding, fossils of the ancestors of modern orangutans are found in SE Asia, while the modern species is only found on the islands of Sumatra and Borneo. Given their relation to chimps and gorillas, this would seem to be yet another ape lineage that wandered out of Africa (our lineage being the most impressive migration, IMHO).
Several genera of early apes are known from the roughly 8 to 10 million or so age range from southern Europe and Anatolia. A complication to keep in mind is that several small plates have broken off and rearranged and collided - the Mediterranean is a tectonically complex region. Not much is known for African material in that age range, so itās hard to say if the apes started in whatās now southern Europe to southwest Asia, moved into Africa, and developed into modern apes and humans, or if the Eurasian fossils are the fringe of an undiscovered African diversification. The article authors admit this uncertainty, in contrast to bad headline writers.
Could it be that the Bible is right when it criticizes those who presume to teach that which they neither know nor understand? If the frequent biblical admonitions to do good work that brings honor to God are heeded, then we must reject the modern young-earth movement and flood geology. If your goal is to promote a young-earth position, you should have no tolerance for poor quality young-earth arguments.
In other words, what is Europe now wasnāt Europe then. So an astute science writer would not have written about humans originating in Europe, but rather about these forebears having lived in what later became part of the landmass we currently call Europe.
Yes ā as I have noted repeatedly, on my university campus their fruit was only bad.
Why would they think of the earth as a thing hanging in space with a shape at all? It was just the ground on which they stood. Thought depends on awareness and they had no access to an awareness big enough to even think about the earth as something with a shape. As far as they were aware, the earth could be a surface which extended indefinitely (not that they presumed to know anything which they couldnāt possibly know).
Soā¦ my answer is they thought NEITHER of these things.
The benefit of a modern education is to learn how to step outside of your own particular point of view. Imposing your own POV on people of the past is a failure to learn this lesson.
They had no information on which to even make speculations about the nature of the sun beyond the light and warmth which came from it. To be sure some people in the ancient world did makes some speculations about this but the vast majority did not because it was frankly foolish to do so when they had so little information to base it on.
You meanā¦ I refuse to accept the imposition of your own POV on the people of the past in order to shove your own worldview and conclusions on other people. Darn tootin I do!
If the only way you can see time in discussion as well spent is when you convert people to your way of thinking, then yes you are wasting your time with me.
Perhaps more to the point, why would they even think of space? To them, there was the tāhom, the Great Deep, then there was the earth with its underworld and the sky-dome with its stars, and the heaven above the sky-dome, and these were all still surrounded by the Great Deep. They had no concept of even a possibility of a volume filled with nothing!
Along with that, their conception of ādownā had nothing to do with gravity, it had to do with essence: āupā was towards heaven, the source of good; ādownā was towards the underworld, the desolate place of the dead. So a world shaped like a ball just hanging somewhere would have made no sense ā it would still have heavens upward and the underworld downward and things would have fallen off the bottom and slid from the steep sides . . . and all the oceans would have drained off.
Except as a circle under the sky-dome which rested on mountains beyond the encircling sea, the somewhat tamed remnant of the Great Deep.
Absolutely!
Thatās the core failure of YEC.
It took me several years of courses designed to force students to recognize the existence of different points of view ā not just personal differences, but cultural and historical ones with radically different definitions of such core concepts as how to know things, how time works, what makes something true, even what the foundation of reality is. Todayās worldview imbibed from before we even learn to talk defines all of those in radically different ways than was the case in ancient Israel; YECās failure is that they donāt grasp that at all.
Just for example letās take the understanding of time. The modern worldview immediately thinks of hours and minutes, clocks and watches, where time marches at a set pace, but in the ancient near east time wasnāt its own phenomenon that way, it was subject to the whims of the powers in/of heaven; a day was the length of time it took for the sun-being to make the journey across the sky, but there was no concept of a schedule that was adhered to ā the sun-being could go fast or slow or even stand still as he pleased, and the fact that days seemed always the same length was a benevolent gift of the sun-being, not something that could be trusted. The OT in various places starts to break this view of time, the very first instance being in Genesis 1 where the writer informs his audience that the sun is not its own being but is a creature of YHWH-Elohim, one that cannot just choose how fast to go across the sky but must follow the orders of its Creator.
āThe point is, if the Turkey specimen is older than Africa, then that aligns with the bible claim all life after the flood came out of the mountains of Ararat.ā
Even if you understand the flood story as literal history, Im pretty sure the text does not say āall lifeā apart from that contained in the ark was wiped out. Do you really believe all the life in the rivers, seas and oceans was also destroyed a few thousand years ago?
I understand the general point you are trying to make - evolutionists claim that humanoids arose originally from Africa, but here is evidence they may have arisen from the Near East, which the Bible implies. But this is little different from those who say as humans evolved from Africa, therefore the Bible is false and reject Christianity. And as others have said, I dont see how this fossil find has any real bearing on the literal truth or otherwise of the flood and Noah, given that the flood is typically dated to a few thousand years ago, whilst this fossil is from millions of years ago.
I think most would argue that the ape fossil in Turkiye is not evidence for humans evolving outside of Africa. This fossil species is too old to supply this information as it predates the split between orangutans and the rest of the great ape lineage.
At the same time, it is a fair question to ask if we have the location of human ancestry right based on the transitional fossils we have, such as the Australopithecines. There could be a bias due to people only looking in Africa for these transitional species because that is where they have been found before. A counter to this argument are the examples of hominid fossils that have been found outside of Africa, such as H. erectus, the ape fossil in question, as well as all of the other ape fossils found in Europe and Asia (e.g. pongid ancestors).
Probably flat but they did not really know. What matters is what made it into the Word which does not definitively say that the earth is flat. All the language associated with the flat earth concept can be remapped. Check out my post and discussion that follows here:
Job thought of it:
Usage: The Hebrew word ātsaphonā primarily denotes the direction ānorth.ā It is used in the Bible to describe geographical orientation, often in relation to the land of Israel. In a broader sense, ātsaphonā can also symbolize mystery or hiddenness, drawing from its root meaning.
Cultural and Historical Background: In ancient Near Eastern cultures, cardinal directions held significant symbolic meanings. The north, or ātsaphon,ā was often associated with mystery and the unknown, as it was the direction from which invading armies frequently came. In Israelite cosmology, the north was also linked to the abode of God, as seen in some poetic and prophetic texts.
Job could have said other directions as well, but chose north as its associated with the unknown. They got attacked from the north by didnāt know where the armies came from. They just didnāt know the extent of the earth, if it had an end, or what shape it was. The land extended to the unknown and stood over the āempty placeā.
Same word translated as āwithout formā in Gen 1:2 used to describe the Great Deep. So we have the land stretching out to an unknown space standing over the deep. Shape is unknown and does not rule out the fact that it turns back on itself into a spherical shape. The Deep, the inner part of the earth is then contained and does not surround everything:
The earth hangs upon nothing.
Job does not say that the earth, as well as God in the heavens, are suspended in a fluid (Great Deep) that extends in all directions forever.
āLet your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.ā -Colossians 4:6
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