I should point out that this isn’t really about human origins (except maybe in a very broad sense of the monophyletic clade of bipedal apse that includes humans). It is about the origin of a clade of bipedal apes that led to humans. Homo sapiens still evolved in Africa even if the earliest bipedal apes actually evolved in Europe. Are you saying that Noah was an australopithecine-like creature that lived millions of years ago? An interesting idea, but not one that fits with the Biblical narrative very well if you insist on a literal six-day interpretation of Genesis 1.
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An 8.7 million year old primate is evidence for YEC like the space station orbiting the planet is evidence for a flat earth.
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Having said that, when I worked in Africa, one huge difficulty is the lack of money to diagnose a problem, as well as the lack of vaccines. When you get a fever, you think of everything it could be—meningitis to malaria, to a simple flu–and hit it as hard as you can to save a life. In diarrhea, it could be ameba, typhoid, parasites, or malaria; in pneumonia, it could be pneumococcus, malaria, and H flu. We saw kids die in a few hours from meningitis–terrifying, and caused PTSD. The daughter of one of the missionaried died that way, and another’s son had permanent brain damage from what turned out to be malaria
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A fair number of early ape fossils are from Europe and Anatolia. But there are more paleontologists working in Europe than in Africa, so it’s hard to judge the significance of the known distribution of fossil apes. Forests are often bad places to get fossilized, so the record of fossil apes is not too extensive.
This find is from central Anatolia, not near Ararat.
In order to reasonably claim that the fossils reflect dispersal from Ararat into a depopulated earth, you need to have general data on distribution of all organisms. This shows that ancient apes lived in what is now Turkey and adds to knowledge of their diversity. The claim that this disrupts understanding of human evolution is dishonest journalistic hype, as the concentration of early ape fossils in what’s now the north Mediterranean region has long been known and discussed. Fossils of assorted other animals are found around the world from the same age. There is no evidence of general dispersal of all sorts of life from one spot. For example, a few land species were starting to make the crossing in either direction between South America and North America around this time, though they would have done some swimming.
But Adam’s mistaking pop headlines for credible sources is far from unique. Plenty of young earth and ID advocates are similarly careless. Much blame goes to the headline writers and news peddlers.
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For anyone interested, physical anthropologist Erika aka Gutsick Gibbon goes beyond the headline and does a YouTube walk through of the paper here:
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Reminds me of the hypothesis of the late participant here, Glenn Morton. Based on his studies, he suggested that Eden was located in an area that is now beneath the Mediterranean Sea, and that the description of the Noah’s Flood fits to what happened in the Mediterranean area crudely 5 million years ago - the catastrophic filling of the Mediterranean basin (Zanclean flood) is the only known flood that somehow fulfills the description of the speed and depth of the rising water in Genesis. That happened crudely 5.3 million years ago, which is much younger than the crudely 8.7 millions ago for Anadoluvius turkae.
I do not support the hypothesis of Glenn Morton but he collected so many interesting facts to support his hypothesis that I bought his book ‘Eden was here’, published posthumously. The book was a rich source of information about the geology of the Mediterranean basin and the Near East coastal area, during a period when four great rivers flowed to the Mediterranean basin through the coastal area that spans from Lebanon to Egypt (Euphrat, Tigris, Nile and a fourth that is now completely dry and buried under sediments).
There were also some information about the fauna that lived around and in the Mediterranean basin before it was drowned in the catastrophic Zanclean flood. The fauna included potential ancestors of humans that moved between North Africa and Europe, through the mostly dry Mediterranean basin. Their bones and footprints (bipedal) have been found in the general area.
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- Thanks for that reference! It has been a while since I’ve watched a Gutsick Gibbon Youtube. Imagine my astonishment when I discovered her Youtube Reviewing the WORST CREATIONIST CONFERENCE.
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It’s their version of the Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive sunglasses. They blank out any text that disagrees with creationism:
An 8.7 million-year-old ape skull suggests that human and ape ancestors may have evolved in Europe, not Africa. An ape skull found in Turkey …
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See “Morton’s Demon”, a metaphorical creature that only allows entry to evidence supporting YEC, identified by Glenn Morton.
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Glenn was a great guy. He shared a lot of his ideas and wisdom near the end of his life here on the forum under the handle @gbob
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Reading through the Nature article, it appears there were other known ape genera found in Europe and the Mediterranean
I’m seeing at least 3 other genera of apes known to exist in Europe around the same time. Anadoluvius (the star of the show) adds one more. The cladograms in the paper have Anadoluvius branching off of the great apes before orangutans split off from our lineage, so well before the chimp/human split (as has been stated multiple times in this thread).
Here is a link to the cladograms.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s42003-023-05210-5/figures/4
If @adamjedgar wants to think that Noah’s family had more basal ape features than gorillas, chimps, and orangutans, I guess that’s his choice, but it’s a strange one.
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Is the Bible right? Yes. Is the biblical interpretation that a global flood happened wiping out all life including all people except a handful the correct interpretation? Not if all life on the planet is meant or all of the homo sapiens species. But is it supposed to be understood literally in every respect? That would not even be coherent (since most life is in the ocean) let alone consistent with the measurable evidence or even in agreement with the overall content of the Bible. But is Genesis supposed to be understood as historical? Yes – that is the clear intent of the text. Is the word “earth” supposed to be understood as the entire globe/planet? That is impossible. The word had no such meaning and other uses of the word in the text contradict this.
“Seems like it’s written as a myth.”
It is not modern historical science – that is for sure. It comes from a time of oral traditions which served many different purposes at the same time including religion, cultural education, law, and entertainment. Doesn’t mean they are not based on historical events.
“If the flood story is supposed to be read as actually factual non hyperbolic history than the Bible is wrong.”
I don’t see why that is true. The understanding of the word “earth” in the text is clearly something much much smaller than a planet. Indeed the understanding of the whole universe in the text of the Bible was quite small in both space and time. So it may be neither fictional nor hyperbolic, but simply composed according to the meaning of the words at the time.
“Just like it’s wrong about a flat earth and the sun revolving around earth.”
A small portion of the planet is flat enough and motion is relative. The Ptolemaic description of the planets was based on accurate measurements and observation – it is simply what we see when we look at the planets in the sky. There is nothing wrong about it. There is simply a great increase in our understanding of reality when we step outside our own usual POV and look at things from other points of view, such as one stationary with respect to the sun. And then we can go beyond that archaic viewpoint and look at the universe stationary with respect to other things like the center of our galaxy or the center of the nearest galactic cluster.
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Well does not matter how we want to define the world. Seems the bulk of ancient Jewish people did think the world was flat, did think their concept of the world, as a flat disc did get covered completely in water. They also believed that the sun moved, not the earth.
How we define the world is irrelevant to the text. What we understand about cosmology is irrelevant to the text.
So while the genre of Genesis seems to be a myth, and it’s not the reason why they believed those things, it’s still portraying what they believe. Their beliefs were already around, and from those beliefs they created a myth and this myth was inspired by what they already believed. We just know that their cosmological concept and their understanding of the earth and so on was wrong. As many have shown before the point of genesis is not science or history. Even though it contains what they believed about science and history.
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Their world was flat because their “world” was not a planet. And the sun does move in the sky. It is only natural to look at things relative to yourself and it is only a modern educational improvement that teaches us to look at things from outside that particular perspective. But thinking this means those people of the past were wrong and the sun does not move is to learn the wrong lesson (just replacing one ignorance with another).
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Of course, if there were apes in Turkey 9 million years ago, that means their ancestors were around a lot earlier, and they may have come out of Africa, or not. No doubt migrations have been happening for a long time.
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So do you think the sun is tiny and revolves around the earth like ancient Jews did or do you agree with me that the earth actually revolves around the sun?
Or if you like. Try it this way.
Do you think the ancient Jews, whoever wrote the verses about Joshua and the sun, do you think they believed the earth was flat or that the earth was a globe?
Globe or flat disc?
Do you believe they believed the sun was huge, way bigger than the earth and that the earth revolved around it or did they think it was smaller, and that the sun revolved around earth?
Which one do you think they believed?
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The flood model would be discredited if proof is found that Jesus and all the disciples never existed.
you see the problem there dont you…even atheism knows from the facts that they really existed.
Im glad you wrote this as i have a dilemma for you…please carefully and thoroughly read the evidences below (these are not exhaustive, there are signfiicantly more i can insert here), its important that you read all of them very carefully…
Creation
Mark 10:6 “But God made them male and female’ from the beginning of creation”
Mark 13:19 in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be
Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made
Romans 8:22 “We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.”
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was createdThe Gospel
The gospel or good news is a theological concept in several religions. In the historical Roman imperial cult and today in Christianity, the gospel is a message about salvation by a divine figure, a savior, who has brought peace or other benefits to humankind. In Ancient Greek religion, the word designated a type of sacrifice or ritual dedication intended to thank the gods upon receiving good news.
Octavian as the August Divine Father, the savior in ancient Roman gospel
The religious concept is found at least as far back as Greece’s Classical era and Roman authors are known to have adopted it toward the end of the 1st century BCE. It is a central message of Christianity today, in which written accounts of the life and teaching of Jesus Christ are known as Gospels.
The Second Coming
Revelation 6:14 “The sky receeds like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island is moved from its place”
Revelation 21:1 “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God”
Revelation 21:6 "He said to me: It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
Revelation 21:24 “The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.”
Tabernacle, Sanctuary and Salvation
1 Chronicles 16:23 Sing to the Lord, all the earth; proclaim his salvation day after day.
Psalm 74:12 But God is my King from long ago; he brings salvation on the earth.
Isaiah 49:6 he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
Matthew 9:6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”
Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Luke 1:77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,
Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Now the dilemma…
please explain in a scholarly manner how it is that all of the bible statements regarding Creation, the Tabernacle/Sanctuary/the law, The Gospel, and finally salvation/redemption are global universal and certainly apply to the entirety of mankind living on this earth (the globe as we know it) and yet individuals here who follow naturalisms scientific view, manage to believe that the creation account is localised and not relating to the entire globe and every individual that has ever lived on the earth?
So in your world view we have
Creation = local event only
The Gospel and Salvation = worldwide event for every individual that has ever existed on earth
Surely you must understand the enormity of the inconsistency there?
What biblical evidences can you provide that support the notion that the creation account and fall of mankind into sin only occured in the garden of Eden, and yet for the entirety of the rest of the bible, we are given a blow by blow account of a global/universal plan of salvation at the hands of a universal omnipotent almighty God who created everything we see and know?
The logical conclusion of your worldview based on the “localised Creation and Fall accounts as well as the localised Noahs flood”, is that the Law, the Gospel, Salvation and Redemption are only appicable to a localised population. The giving of the Gospel to the Gentiles does not fix your problem…because we know that the Cannanites are traced biblically to Noahs son Ham! Given they were not all wiped out during the conquest of Cannan, then many of them would have naturally become part of what the Jews called “gentiles”!
The really interesting thing about the dna evidence above…Iranians and Iraqis both also share dna heritage…which supports the biblical narrative of Abraham descending out of Ur of the Chaldees!