Yeah. Israel. And Babylon, Assyria, Moab, … In fact one has to look for any that didn’t eventually involve a reversal or even multiple reversals. Maybe Sodom or Gomorrah? But even with those … more on that in a bit. It’s a fairly common theme among the old testament prophets, both “major” and “minor” that they speak of God’s wrath on Israel (often for mistreating the poor, needy, and vulnerable). It’s fire, death, and destruction unleashed. Then often the prophetic message eventually turns a corner and wrath gives way to grief and lament over how God’s people could be so faithless and disobedient. And finally grief gives way to a celebration of eventual return, restoration, and blessing. Jeremiah, the ‘reluctant’ prophet runs through all of these themes, and he isn’t alone among the prophets. Jeremiah chapters 2 - 11 are full of dire warnings about what is to come. Then, see the end of Jeremiah chapter 32 for where Jeremiah has moved on to reassurances; “…They will be my people and I will be their God … Just as I brought this great disaster on this people, so I will bring on them all the good I promised them.” And alternately then too, doom now on Babylon, the formerly blessed instrument of God’s punishment on Israel. Jesus loves quoting these prophets. And lest we become complacent and imagine those reversals to stop permanently in our favor, Paul has warnings for us from Romans 11 where Gentiles may be overconfident to celebrate God’s ‘reversal’ of allowing them to be grafted in to God’s olive tree while some of its own natural branches had been broken off in judgment. But they too (the gentiles) are given warning by Paul that if God didn’t spare the native branches from judgment, then these newly grafted branches shouldn’t presume they will be above judgment either! And yes - the native branches can (and will) be grafted back in eventually. Astounding reversals and surprises seem to be more the rule than the exception as we read Jesus, the prophets he so often quoted, and his apostles after him. “Who has known the Lord’s mind? Or who has been his mentor? Who has given him a gift and has been paid back by him?” asks Paul - quoting Job - and Paul goes on: “All things are from him and through him and for him.”
…Except those - you may ask - who must be permanently lost? It’s a fair question. Some biblical language, taken in isolation, can certainly make it sound like Paul was wrong and that in the end some things may be permanently and eternally resistant and rebellious - refusing to bend the knee. Sodom and Gomorra must surely be the quintessential examples of this, right? Even here, though, we see Jesus himself making use of those ancient prophetic, surprise reversals. They must be the lowest of the low, right? Surely nobody suffers a judgment so low or permanent as those awful places! But right there in the heart of the gospels we see it … “woe to you, _______, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorra in that day than for you!” (Matthew 10:15 and other places too.) And this was directed towards towns in Israel - among God’s chosen no less!. Apparently there are fates worse than what Sodom suffered! Yes - the point still stands, that all these judgments were and are terrible things, both for Sodom then and for us now. But in all that, the prophetic and Christ-echoed theme also still resounds, that God can pull off stunning reversals (in both directions!), and that it will be God and not us who finally enacts any real or lasting salvation that we may be given.
Yep i have been reading it, that was why i made the response that i did. Im not all the way through yet obviously, however there are some fundamental issues that i cant ignore when even considering the notion of restorative judgement. We cannot ignore the dilemmas it faces in the absence of adequite theological support for the idea.
Assyria was eventually completely wiped out…moabites didnt fare much better…Babylon destroyed and still hasnt been inhabited millenia later (although Sadam Hussein did try to rebuild but never finished it)…the Israelites is an interesting one…
Were the judgements on Israel ever total destruction and death? God always promised to restore them.
Despite asking the above question, yep i think i agree that the Israelite example is the closest to restorative judgement for a race of people there Mervin, although none of the examples you gave are for the individual. Thats interesting because we find many evidences where the sins of the people as a race recieve judgement where clearly individuals also suffered…its hard to separate the two.
Thank you for the heads up i shall look into this because the Israelites were restored from captivity mamy times after judgement. That means that the judegments threatened by the prophets were not final as in the case of Noahs flood, Sodom amd Gomorah, or the Assyrians…i think there are some differences there.
So in light of your examples there Mervin, i have to rethink my position on restorative judgement and universalism. Despite this for the part of the OPs paper ive read thus far, I dont see any philosophical reasons to change my view, but if there are theological reasons…thats a different story.
Update…oh theres another dilemma, Revelation clearly defines a close of probation for us at the end of time. Obviously there are probationary periods throughout tue ages, however, that idea is also noted within the context of the Old Testament Sanctuary. However, once the day of atonement is complete, and the responsibility for sin placed on Azazeels goat…its cast out. Christ died once for all sin…given the finality of the book of Revelation and its relationship to the Old Testament Sanctuary, i do not think those who are not saved by Rev 21 have any further chance of restoration…the real problem there for us is that it appears restricted to our mortal lifetime…note what revelation says about the second death. It appears that the unsaved are not resurrected to see the second coming…jt appears that they only come back to life to see and be punished in the final judgement.
Would it be fair to say that most (if not all) of these groups were merely scattered rather than ‘wiped out’? As in ‘diaspora’ (like what happened to the Jews) - scattered and mixed around the world. Yeah - that nation may not have ever existed any more as such, but the people in it presumably had intermarried into other cultures and been assimilated. Think of Ruth the Moabitess for example, or Rahab from Jericho - both in the lineage of Christ.
But yes - good observation. Judgment was often (almost always?) pronounced on entire communities if not nations, and rarely on individuals. It is in stark contrast with how individualistically we think of religious identity now. Not saying such individuality is wrong or that we need to totally abandon it in favor of all communitarian identity only. But it is a reminder that Christianity (in it biblically historical roots) was never a merely individualistic affair.
The reason why i introduced the relationship with the Old Testament Sanctuary is because it seems that within that models prophetic time period, those who are living are often given the chance of redemption but also within that model, once the sins are placed on the head of the goat, its kaput.
If we consider the defining of the second death in the book of Revelation, those who die the 3rd time fall outside the model of the Sanctuary, for them its clearly kaput once we get to Revelation 21.
In Revelation 22, i think it becomes obvious that the slate has been wiped clean…evil is gone from all of Gods creation. I would argue that that means sin/evil is removed from all energy and matter in the universe. Theologically because things didnt start out with sin in the first place. If God is love, and the 10 commandments represent His law of love, anything that breaks that law cannot continue to exist in the universe…Christ cant keep dying in atonement…once the Day of Atonement service is complete at Rev 21, thats it…its over and we move into Rev 22.