Interesting.
I am not used to seeing you argue outside Scripture
Don’t get me wrong, I am not disputing the logic, only the derivation.
There is nothing in that chapter to indicate that anywhere other than the holy city will be paradise. Even the beginning of the next one suggests that it is only within that city that God Rules
Richard
oh but Richard absolutely there is everything to indicate that it is outside the Holy City.
Lets go back to the entire Biblical theme…its clearly Global.
For example:
If you are able to show me in the Bible that what “the gospel” presents to us is NOT a global event…can you do that from scripture with any consistency?
Yes, exactly. I like your emphasis on restoring things to their former glory because I took a similar line of reasoning when I was writing the essay “You Are Not Your Mistakes” that I shared in the opening. My reasoning went something like this:
If God exists and is omnipotent, it means everything that exists is under His rule. If that is the case, then His nature must be reflected in everything He rules in some way, otherwise that suggests that there are things capable of fully rebelling against Him, thus negating His omnipotence. So in essence, I am suggesting that it is only possible for us to partially rebel against God (also known as Love), whether that “percentage of rebellion” is 1% or 99.9999%. I realize that this suggests that Lucifer/Satan is not fully rebelling, and yes, I stand by that position. I believe Satan is a fallen being “doing evil so that good may result” (Romans 3:8).
Then, if we then agree that God’s nature is reflected in everything that exists, the job of Universalist theology is to acknowledge this fact. Then, in my opinion, discussions involving Christian Universalism should not seek to downplay the severity of Hell, but instead try to draw from the depths of our understanding of what it means to love to find out how God’s nature is reflected in Hell.
It’s from this sequence of arguments and my study of scripture that I wrote the essay in the OP which frames hell as a place of correction and restoration.
I am sorry Adam, but you are globalising a passage that is not global. it is specific. Furthermore you are manifesting as vision into simple reality. Virions are, by definition, symbolic and outside of reality.
Like the Creation, you are refusing to take each narrative in its own right, There is context and there is globalisation.
Richard
There is a difference between the living and the dead. As long as we live, we have the possibility to turn to God and receive forgiveness. After we die, that possibility is (probably) gone - I use the word ‘probably’ because I have not experienced physical death yet.
What happens after death to those who do not receive forgiveness during this life is a debated question. Christian believers have at least three different interpretations. One is tormentation in hell; the other is that God annihilates those that are judged to eternal punishment (annihilation: they are no more); the third is being cast away from God and the joy in his presence (eternity outside in darkness, alone) - I have heard that the third option is closest to what many Jews think.
The option that all are saved is not traditional Christianity. I have heard it mostly from people who think that love in the humane sense is the ruling principle. They seem to stress mercy so much that they forget the balancing side, truth. Love in the humane sense is not the same concept as the love of God because in the love of God, mercy and truth are both present.
Revelation is full of mental pictures and metaphores. Revelation 21 is not an exception. The Holy city, New Jerusalem, appears to be the ‘bride’, that is the universal church of those who are adopted to the family of God. What happens inside does not describe what happens outside. Revelation 21:27 and 22:11-15 tell that there are those that do not experience the comfort and joy that is experienced in the presence of God.
It can be found in the pre-Nicene Fathers. It fades once the church gains political power (make of that correlation what you will).
That is an interesting interpretation, I guess I just disagree with you based on the parable of the prodigal son. He had everything, but still chose to leave. But once his mind was changed he was accepted by his father before he even got home.
I like your emphasis on free will because I am currently thinking through and developing a position. Basically, as we see from Eden, eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil awakened in Adam & Eve a consciousness of scarcity. A fear of lack. The first thing they did was to hide from each other, and then from God by covering up - I believe those actions came from a fear of not being “enough” i.e shame. Shame is what keeps us in sin, which is why confessing our sins makes them lose their power.
Anyway, back to the topic. Without the illusion of free will, we would all be acting (freely, still!) in 100% accordance with God’s (Love’s) Will. I think that is the paradox of God - He created us “free in Christ Jesus”, yet, that freedom bounds us to act in love. We were created to be free within love. The “original sin” is the decision to act freely for our own ego instead of for love, which also makes us think that salvation is something we can earn by exercising this “choice”, and not something that is already predestined for us.
Back to the parable of the prodigal son… he was given everything by his father instead of patiently following his father’s will (original sin). In spite of that bad choice, a good son would’ve still gone out into the world, invested these riches, and multiplied them, and even generously given things to others he met along the way (carrying our cross daily and using our lives to be tools of love).
Unfortunately, this son squandered everything just like many of us do. I believe his sojourn in the world can be likened to our lifetimes when we choose sin instead of life.
After losing everything, I like to think that the prodigal son must’ve wandered in “hell”. Clinging to his ego. Refusing to admit that he messed up from the start. Until one day, he finally made the choice to let go and return to love.
As soon as his father saw him approaching in the distance he celebrated and organized a feast for him.
I am fully convinced that our Heavenly Father’s love knows no bounds, and neither death nor life can separate us from the love He has for us expressed in Christ Jesus.
We might wander outside of the heavenly city, maybe pass through fire that burns up some part of us, barely escaping the flames (1 Corinthians 3:15) and so on. We will lose a lot of what we consider our “self”. I imagine that for the most wicked among us, we will lose almost all of what we consider to ourselves.
But love is the only thing that is eternal. And once the image of love at the core of every one of us makes the free choice to return to its Source, just like the prodigal son, our Heavenly Father will be smiling with excitement waiting to welcome us and fill us in on all the fun stuff that happened while we were wandering in the dark.
On another note, the mental image of being eternally separated from the One who Loves me fills me with fear and dread, but perfect love casts out fear. That is where my theology begins from. The One I love so dearly would never invoke images of eternal separation to make me love Him. We recognize that scaring our romantic partners with ultimatums doesn’t make them love us anymore, it only scares them into doing things for us. Why do we think our relationship with Love itself would be any different? There is no fear in love.
Also, If we can be forgiven in life why can’t we be forgiven in death? “Sins against the Holy Spirit” are things we do everyday. Building up ego-driven actions as part of our “self”. But these parts of our self are false and can never make it to eternity, because they weren’t borne from love. They must be burned away, even if they make up the majority of our earthly created identities.
He was accepted by his father before he even changed his mind!
This is why that parable bugged me even as a teen – investing would have been my first move, on the premise that investing now means more fun later!
“To love”? The text seems more like he was willing to settle for survival – reminds me of Peter, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life!” His words to his father show he was willing to settle for the bare minimum.
No, we don’t. Without going into detail, making the sin against the Holy Spirit is difficult; it has to be almost intentional, and will leave a person regarding Jesus with hate.
What is sin if not intentional? I mean there are unintentional sins too, to be sure, bumping someone in a crowd … But those are the easiest and least consequential sins to deal with. You apologize and move on! The majority of our real sins are the ones requiring repentance and heart transformation. They are all the highly intentional sort.
Leviticus 4-5 and Numbers 12 go in to quite detail about unintentional sins.
Having said that, Christ’s teaching emphasises intent as being the major pat of sin, so much that the intent alone can be a sin even if never carried out.
Richard
I admit I haven’t thought through that one as deeply, the “cannot be forgiven” line still leaves a lot of unanswered questions in me tbh.
Most sins we’re not even aware of; a lot of sanctification growth comes from learning that things we take no consideration of count as sins.
But I meant you have to practically set out to deliberately commit the sin against the Holy Spirit, so not merely intentional but deliberate and premeditated.
I think it comes down to calling evil good, and calling good evil. If you’ve watched The Chosen, the character of Shmuel comes to mind; he sees the good that Jesus is doing and calls it wickedness, which I’d say is the first step on the path.
Interesting! I watched the first season a couple of years ago when it first came out but I think a rewatch is in order now!!
when I consider the redemptive nature of Hell I am confronted with a few dilemmas:
I am not aware of consistent scriptural support for the idea that I can save my brother from his sins myself…the bible consistently speaks of the individuals repentance, so that would strongly suggest that the model of purgatory has fundamental theological flaws…even irreconcilable ones at that.
Do we have any Biblical evidences where Gods judgement has been reversed once the punishment is applied?
On the contrary, I can think of some where once the period of probation has expired, the hammer has dropped:
Sodom and Gomorah
Babylon under Belshazzar
Jesuralem in AD 70
Ananias and Saphira (who were both given the opportunity to come clean and they did not…both were struck down dead)
When we consider Revelation 21…hmmm I don’t see any notion there of wicked living after that chapter in the Bible. Its clearly kaput.
Perhaps if I were to put aside all of the above and just consider the theme of the Bible, we find that when Lucifer rebelled in Heaven, he upset the balance of things…God turfed him out. When Lucifer then decided to continue on with his campaign of corruption on this earth, he has willfully continued on down a pathway to his own destruction. It is very clear that there is no room in Gods space for evil…the two cannot co-exist. Interestingly enough, from the Old Testament Sanctuary model, we find that the ultimate responsibility for the sins of the people is past by the priest onto Azazeels goat…who is then cast out into the wilderness.
What a little historical research tells us is that the goat (Azazeels goat) is generally believed to have died in the wilderness. Some claim it was cast off a cliff, however, either way a prey animal left by itself out in such a place cannot possibly be expected to survive. We know from our own study of nature that herd animals isolated from the herd, quickly fall victim to predators…they almost never survive long outside the herd.
That tells me that in the end, its kaput for Satan…his judgement is a single and final event…not one of purgatory or where there is a further chance of redemption. His probation ended at least at the cross ( as the Mosaic Sanctuary model would suggestion on the Day of Atonement)
So my personal criticism is that universalism and restorative judgement for the individual in question are difficult themes to support biblically. However, I agree that for those who are looking on, there is definitely an influence…the mixed multitude who left Egypt with Moses and the Israelites…clearly they were convinced in the Mosaic case for leaving Egypt after watching how the country was devastated by the plagues that befell its people and the land!
yeah i agree with this St Roymond. We know that the Holy Spirit speaks to us through our hearts and in our minds…ignoring those whisperings of conscience (if you will), that has to be intentional, I dont think we can play pretend that we dont feel that we are doing something wrong given that fundamental truth.
Wouldnt you agree that in the parable of the prodical son, judgment had not yet descended upon that son?
We note that the father went outside every day hoping for the return of the son to his home…and when the son finally did come back (because the son had not died), the father welcomed him with open arms.
Conversely,
consider king Saul…
God tried many times to bring him back into the fold, however, the king refused to take the hint…eventually even venturing to the witch of endor for advice on what he should do. It was at this point that he completely locked God out of his life, his conscience…God would not (i argue, could not) reach him any more. Saul then walked into battle knowing his life was lost…he died on that battlefield and the opportunity for repentance and therefore salvation died with him. There was no restorative judgement for King Saul.
Another very well known example is Judas Iscariot. Judgement for these guys is very clearly death.
I am just trying to think of biblical examples where probation has been after death? Can anyone think of such an example in the bible?
Hi, did you get a chance to read the article I shared in the OP? That is where I made my case.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
This is a place for gracious dialogue about science and faith. Please read our FAQ/Guidelines before posting.
