Interesting.
I am not used to seeing you argue outside Scripture
Don’t get me wrong, I am not disputing the logic, only the derivation.
There is nothing in that chapter to indicate that anywhere other than the holy city will be paradise. Even the beginning of the next one suggests that it is only within that city that God Rules
Richard
oh but Richard absolutely there is everything to indicate that it is outside the Holy City.
Lets go back to the entire Biblical theme…its clearly Global.
For example:
If you are able to show me in the Bible that what “the gospel” presents to us is NOT a global event…can you do that from scripture with any consistency?
Yes, exactly. I like your emphasis on restoring things to their former glory because I took a similar line of reasoning when I was writing the essay “You Are Not Your Mistakes” that I shared in the opening. My reasoning went something like this:
If God exists and is omnipotent, it means everything that exists is under His rule. If that is the case, then His nature must be reflected in everything He rules in some way, otherwise that suggests that there are things capable of fully rebelling against Him, thus negating His omnipotence. So in essence, I am suggesting that it is only possible for us to partially rebel against God (also known as Love), whether that “percentage of rebellion” is 1% or 99.9999%. I realize that this suggests that Lucifer/Satan is not fully rebelling, and yes, I stand by that position. I believe Satan is a fallen being “doing evil so that good may result” (Romans 3:8).
Then, if we then agree that God’s nature is reflected in everything that exists, the job of Universalist theology is to acknowledge this fact. Then, in my opinion, discussions involving Christian Universalism should not seek to downplay the severity of Hell, but instead try to draw from the depths of our understanding of what it means to love to find out how God’s nature is reflected in Hell.
It’s from this sequence of arguments and my study of scripture that I wrote the essay in the OP which frames hell as a place of correction and restoration.
I am sorry Adam, but you are globalising a passage that is not global. it is specific. Furthermore you are manifesting as vision into simple reality. Virions are, by definition, symbolic and outside of reality.
Like the Creation, you are refusing to take each narrative in its own right, There is context and there is globalisation.
Richard
There is a difference between the living and the dead. As long as we live, we have the possibility to turn to God and receive forgiveness. After we die, that possibility is (probably) gone - I use the word ‘probably’ because I have not experienced physical death yet.
What happens after death to those who do not receive forgiveness during this life is a debated question. Christian believers have at least three different interpretations. One is tormentation in hell; the other is that God annihilates those that are judged to eternal punishment (annihilation: they are no more); the third is being cast away from God and the joy in his presence (eternity outside in darkness, alone) - I have heard that the third option is closest to what many Jews think.
The option that all are saved is not traditional Christianity. I have heard it mostly from people who think that love in the humane sense is the ruling principle. They seem to stress mercy so much that they forget the balancing side, truth. Love in the humane sense is not the same concept as the love of God because in the love of God, mercy and truth are both present.
Revelation is full of mental pictures and metaphores. Revelation 21 is not an exception. The Holy city, New Jerusalem, appears to be the ‘bride’, that is the universal church of those who are adopted to the family of God. What happens inside does not describe what happens outside. Revelation 21:27 and 22:11-15 tell that there are those that do not experience the comfort and joy that is experienced in the presence of God.
It can be found in the pre-Nicene Fathers. It fades once the church gains political power (make of that correlation what you will).
That is an interesting interpretation, I guess I just disagree with you based on the parable of the prodigal son. He had everything, but still chose to leave. But once his mind was changed he was accepted by his father before he even got home.
I like your emphasis on free will because I am currently thinking through and developing a position. Basically, as we see from Eden, eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil awakened in Adam & Eve a consciousness of scarcity. A fear of lack. The first thing they did was to hide from each other, and then from God by covering up - I believe those actions came from a fear of not being “enough” i.e shame. Shame is what keeps us in sin, which is why confessing our sins makes them lose their power.
Anyway, back to the topic. Without the illusion of free will, we would all be acting (freely, still!) in 100% accordance with God’s (Love’s) Will. I think that is the paradox of God - He created us “free in Christ Jesus”, yet, that freedom bounds us to act in love. We were created to be free within love. The “original sin” is the decision to act freely for our own ego instead of for love, which also makes us think that salvation is something we can earn by exercising this “choice”, and not something that is already predestined for us.
Back to the parable of the prodigal son… he was given everything by his father instead of patiently following his father’s will (original sin). In spite of that bad choice, a good son would’ve still gone out into the world, invested these riches, and multiplied them, and even generously given things to others he met along the way (carrying our cross daily and using our lives to be tools of love).
Unfortunately, this son squandered everything just like many of us do. I believe his sojourn in the world can be likened to our lifetimes when we choose sin instead of life.
After losing everything, I like to think that the prodigal son must’ve wandered in “hell”. Clinging to his ego. Refusing to admit that he messed up from the start. Until one day, he finally made the choice to let go and return to love.
As soon as his father saw him approaching in the distance he celebrated and organized a feast for him.
I am fully convinced that our Heavenly Father’s love knows no bounds, and neither death nor life can separate us from the love He has for us expressed in Christ Jesus.
We might wander outside of the heavenly city, maybe pass through fire that burns up some part of us, barely escaping the flames (1 Corinthians 3:15) and so on. We will lose a lot of what we consider our “self”. I imagine that for the most wicked among us, we will lose almost all of what we consider to ourselves.
But love is the only thing that is eternal. And once the image of love at the core of every one of us makes the free choice to return to its Source, just like the prodigal son, our Heavenly Father will be smiling with excitement waiting to welcome us and fill us in on all the fun stuff that happened while we were wandering in the dark.
On another note, the mental image of being eternally separated from the One who Loves me fills me with fear and dread, but perfect love casts out fear. That is where my theology begins from. The One I love so dearly would never invoke images of eternal separation to make me love Him. We recognize that scaring our romantic partners with ultimatums doesn’t make them love us anymore, it only scares them into doing things for us. Why do we think our relationship with Love itself would be any different? There is no fear in love.
Also, If we can be forgiven in life why can’t we be forgiven in death? “Sins against the Holy Spirit” are things we do everyday. Building up ego-driven actions as part of our “self”. But these parts of our self are false and can never make it to eternity, because they weren’t borne from love. They must be burned away, even if they make up the majority of our earthly created identities.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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