I have always found myself drawn towards Christian Universalism, but for the longest time I wondered how it was compatible with both Justice and Mercy - both component’s of God’s Nature. While traditional views of Hell emphasize God’s Justice, most Universalist frameworks I have come across emphasize His Mercy. But I believe both are inseparable from each other
2 Likes
The problem here is to distinguish between human justice and God’s justice. Human justice demands recompense and punishment, God’s justice does not..
Humans are always trying to impose their values onto God instead of recognising that God sees things differently. Human justice cannot understand forgiveness and no consequences.. Humans cannot understand the concept of grace without payment or particiapation.
There is no such thing as God’s restorative justice. It is not justice : it is grace.
Richard
1 Like
That sort of smacks of purgatory.
Pehaps it is best not to preguess the full nature of Heaven. It will almost certainly have little resemblence to the earth and life we now know.
Richard
I had a look but, for whatever reason it did not hold me.
I am a believer in free will and opposed to any sort of predestination so having seen you try and combine them You lost me.
Richard
I really like this line:
scarcity brings in us a need to control outcomes.
It strikes me as true for just about everything, though the biggest scarcity is time!
Since God is Love, these two have to be aspects of love.
I also liked the Lenard-Jones Interatomic Potential illustration; I’ve heard it used to illustrate the psychological point that people tend to expend only enough energy to stay comfortable.
2 Likes
This reminds me of how a number of Christ’s parables get misinterpreted. An obvious one is that where the Kingdom of Heaven is compared to a man finding a treasure in a field, and spending everything to acquire that field. The usual application is that we should “spend” every effort to acquire the treasure of the Kingdom, but that is not what the parable says – Jesus didn’t say that the Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure, He said that the Kingdom is like the man who found a treasure! The point is that we are the treasure and that the Kingdom is God doing everything possible to acquire us. The usual application is saying we can earn heaven somehow; the parable is actually saying how much we are worth to God and how far He will go to acquire us – He will “spend” everything.
1 Like
My older brother the mathematician says that mathematically the two can be reconciled, but he always lost me, too.
1 Like
I am between conditional immortality and universalism.
1 Like
Hi, Richmond - Glad you came forward to share and pursue productive engagement around a great topic! And if you search through past threads, you may discover this isn’t the first time it’s been brought up - though maybe you’ve already seen those.
I’ll admit I haven’t fully read through the book link you shared - busy day; but I don’t mind dropping in here just on the strength of what you share right here already in the forum. I too share in your concern over how justice and mercy need to work together, and how love is a key to all of it. I resonate with that myself.
I am curious if in any of your research or writings you have encountered George MacDonald’s work on this topic? I credit his written work (novels, and especially his unspoken sermons) with bringing me to where I am now in how I view God - as One in whom is no darkness at all! (1 John 1 starting at v. 5) Even if verses can be found (mostly - though not entirely) in the old testament that seem to contradict this, I yet take John seriously and with the conviction that if I read any part of the Bible in such a way as to make it seem that God does evil things or is not like Christ - then I’m reading the Bible wrong. Period. You can read MacDonald’s quintessential sermon (Justice) for free online. But any of the sermons in that whole series are good - maybe try others first and work up to the specific one about Justice. That’s the sermon I think you’d really find an interest in as regards this topic. Just a warning - it isn’t light reading. But once you get into the flow of his conversationally styled prose, there is treasure to be had there. God is eternally and always merciful. And he is eternally and always just. And there is no conflict or contradiction between those things. If God is merciful, then it must be just to be merciful. And if God is just, then it must be merciful to be just. God is one.
I could mention other good authors too - but I’ll leave it here for now.
-Merv
2 Likes
If that is true, does that mean that if God is merciful, then to be just He must always show mercy?
Richard
I think it’s just a conviction that God’s attributes are never in competition with each other. So however we picture or imagine ‘mercy’ to look, if it includes injustice, then it isn’t really ‘mercy’, or at least not the perfect kind as God gives. And if we imagine ‘justice’ as something that ever includes being merciless, then it is not real justice of any Godly kind, but only of the fallen, vengeful, retributive human kind - which is neither just nor merciful nor Godly in any way.
It’s a way of raising the bar infinitely high. Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. It gives us something to aspire toward, to aim at, and to continually ask for help as we inevitably fall way, way short.
4 Likes
Guess part of the nature of god discussion depends on if you think god is just one god, or the conflation of numerous gods overtime into over entity. If all those actions represent god or are just attributed to him.
I am reminded of the book of Rob Bell: “Love Wins.”
Both his argument and yours fails.
His was that God’s love would surely win over the powers of sin and evil. The problem with this is that love is not a power – that is a contradiction in terms. If it is power then it isn’t love. Furthermore the Bible (as well as life) is filled with examples of where love does not win. Things do not always go according to God’s desire. Sometimes God is disappointed and has regrets.
As for your argument… Yes we are not our mistakes. Mistakes are in fact a necessary part of learning. And as long as we do learn from our mistakes, I don’t think this is sin or a problem. I think sin consists of self-destructive habits and it is these which often get in the way of learning from our mistakes. This begins with Adam and Eve who instead of learning from their mistakes and asking God how to fix things, they instead turn to blaming others – blaming everyone and everything for their problems but themselves. That is a bad habit which gets in the way of learning from our mistakes and it is central to the endemic problems in the world – prisons are full of people who blame others for their crimes.
I emphasize neither. Mercy is important part of justice because it is often just what is needed to help people learn from their mistakes. But mercy is completely wrong when it just helps criminals repeat their crimes on more and more victims. It is part of the job of a good judge to decide which of these is the case. But frankly I don’t think heaven and hell is about justice at all. I think it is about choice – whether we want and accept the help of God in overcoming our self-destructive habits or we cling to those habits until they consume and destroy us.
So the fact is that I would deconstruct justice itself into two different things: one is that our actions and choices have consequences which cannot be escaped, and two that cheap forgiveness sends the wrong message that our actions have no consequences.
The first is completely separate from heaven and hell – and that neither of these is an escape from the consequences of our actions. So I believe in both heaven and hell we will have very good reason to regret our evil actions and be grateful for our good actions. So in Romans 2 its says “for he will render to every man according to his works.” Though frankly, I think this happens as a matter of nature and not by some kind of intervention by God.
The second explains why Jesus died on the cross – not because justice requires our sin to be paid for even by some innocent patsy, nor because God needs some kind magical human sacrifice in order to forgive. No. It is because we have to understand that forgiveness is not cheap. It is offered to all as a gift on the condition that we understand how terrible sin really is. Sin will even make us kill those sent to help and save us.
The difference of heaven and hell is matter of whether sin is being dealt with or it consumes us until nothing is left – and that is a matter of our choice. No I do not believe God takes away all choices of any real significance away from us. It is love to endure the pain of love rejected, rather than forcing people to do what is best for them. The story of the prodigal son is welcoming back the wayward son when he realizes his mistake, and certainly not bringing him back by force.
Anyway the above is why I am not a universalist. I don’t think it agrees with the Bible or with my observations of human behavior. It is certainly not because it disagrees with some Christianity I was taught. I was not raised Christian (far from it) and I considered every different aspect of Christianity quite separately (and not under the tutelage of some Christian group). Although I think I am well within the definition of Christianity (which is mostly about Trinitarianism) there are definitely areas where I am far from Western protestant orthodoxy. For example, I reject both Calvinism and Arminianism in favor of open theism. And I have a more Eastern orthodox view of original sin and atonement.
That said… I don’t think universalism falls outside Christianity. I think there is long history of Christian fathers who favored this view of things.
2 Likes
When Peter asked how man time he must forgive. Christ did not stipulate that his brother should repent or even show remorse.
Richard
1 Like
I certainly hope He is in the times when a bout of depression trips me back into bad habits of self-comfort.
2 Likes
That is a different issue.
The question of mercy for a judge is not the same as the question of forgiveness for people who are not in a position to judge at all. We were talking about God who certainly IS in a position to judge.
1 Like
And you seem to think that you are in position to either know, or dictate that judgement.
It is not a different issue, in the manner you suggest. it is the difference between human justice and claiming that God must abide by it or even that He agrees with it.
Richard
Yes. Ultimate justice was done on the Cross, and the Cross is the ultimate expression of God’s mercy – the two go together.
And they must because God is Love, so justice must conform to Love, and Love is always merciful.
Yet by the meaning of the Greek word for “perfect” there, it is the striving that is the perfection, the moving towards the goal.
1 Like
Since you appear to be determined (ignoring the gist to blow up trivialities) to pick a fight…
No… that would be you.
Unlike you I don’t pretend to be other than human. And NO I will not abandon my humanity in the pursuit or defense of stale Christian dogma!
Not in the least. I am not claiming that God can only be merciful or forgive those who repent or at least show remorse. In fact I am not claiming God must do anything. You on the other hand are dictating what is justice and that there has to be consequences.
So kindly get your facts straight.
It is not Christianity dictating anything, but you seem uncomfortable with its conclusions about forgiveness and justice. In truth, I am uncomfortable with the traditional view that grace and forgiveness need human validation to take effect, but you do not seem to have that problem.
Richard