Been there garrett. In the same neighbourhood. Since Constantine at the latest religion has sold out to power. It still does. ‘Only’ in the Bible Belt… and Northern Ireland does YEC hold power. But religion, especially Christianity, has prostituted itself, herself, to Babylon, whether in Tennessee or Tomsk.
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Interesting take on Indigenous Jay! Those seven African countries have been at least as Christianized as Kansas and as long.
Turkey and some others too, right?
Paganism is often allied with ethnic purity too.
Indeed, non-Christian YECs are legion. Christianity is in bad company.
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Turns out Kierkegaard was right in his criticism of “Christendom” – official state religion.
for “Christendom” is…the betrayal of Christianity;
a “Christian world” is…apostasy from Christianity.
Christian nationalism is an “indigenous” faith, as far as I’m concerned. It’s a syncretistic blend of Christianity and political ideology – the “folk religion” of our time and place.
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People here have double standarts.They keep pointing out how Christianity and nationalism are bad yet have no idea how much other religions combined with nationalism are worse.But ohh well.Whats the point of the thread anyway?Because weve already knew how bad these two were together(not only these two but every religion)
No nationalistic, imperialistic religion is worse than nationalistic, imperialistic Christianity, which is a travesty of how Jesus lived and taught and died.
I said i was gonna ignore you(which i have till now)and will continue to do so.But if the people here are getting “inspired” by your views then may God help us…Thats the only thing im gonna say.Keep moving with your life
You mean Jesus got it wrong?
Jesus predicted that his followers would be “hated” (actively opposed or simply disregarded) by all nations (Matt 24:9). They would be strangers and pilgrims, like Abraham among the Canaanites (Heb 11:13). Therefore, Jesus never offered a blueprint for a “Christian” earthly nation, nor are the ethics he preached suitable for that purpose–which is why attempts to create “Christian” nation states inevitably harken back to the Old Testament and try to drag commands and examples from covenantal Israel into the gospel age against the grain of the New Testament.
Human beings long for security they can see and power they can wield in the here-and-now, however much they also want to persuade themselves that they are following Jesus. They never seem to notice that Jesus worked outside the power-wielding institutions of his time, both Jewish and Roman.
The inevitable result is power worship, typically cloaked in traditionalism (another human fetish), ornamented awkwardly with filtered and misapplied Scripture. This phenomenon has been rampant since the days of Constatine the Great and is nakedly evident in the current posture of American evangelicalism.
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There is nationalism as theory, which is bad, and there is nationalism which is a reality in the USA today, which is a disgrace. Neither of them can be called by any stretch of theological meaning Christian.
Judaism is a national religion. If Jesus wanted to found a national faith. He was the Jewish Messiah, so He did not have to change a thing. He and the Apostles could have ruled the world from Jerusalem just as the Roman emperor ruled from Rome. But He did not.
Jesus made it clear that God was above any human ethnicity, including the Jews and Christians. Nationalism is best understood by that fact that Hitler named his party the National Socialist (Nazi) Party. The national aspect of this name was that it was based on the belief that the “Aryan” nationality was the superior race.
American Exceptionalism is best understood by the words, “We hold these truths to be self evident, all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights… .” This is
the American ideal, E Pluribus Unum, one people out of many ethnicities.
On the other hand if one grew up in an area where people based their self value on the color of their skin, whether they were gay or straight, even whether they believed in the Bible or not, then the 21st century is a shock.
Christian nationalism is not about Christianity. It is about White Power. It is about using the Bible and the Constitution for selfish ends. Ideas and ideals are good and necessary, but they can be misused and abused. That is why we need God. .
.
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Well, Darek. You do have some points here that are good. It is not a bad thing, however, to want --or work for – the application of biblical principles in society — as opposed to something else. There is an argument made for abolitionism to have been born out of a biblical influence – whether OT or NT, you decide (maybe a bit of both). Educational institutions, hospitals, many social services (or the general idea), agencies that provide relief overseas…care for unwanted/discarded babies (tossed on the heap in ancient societies) which some equate this with today’s pro-life movement, etc…all these came from someone somewhere deciding they (or their church or group) had a mandate — biblically perhaps – for the ideas they rooted for. As for “the current posture of American evangelicalism” — I disagree with that “current posture” in some areas and other areas not.
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Private “good Samaritan” efforts may be appropriate for believers, but programs to take control of the machinery of government in order to create a godly society have no warrant in the New Testament. Jesus refused to be made king, even though arguably he could have bettered his own society by doing so. Jesus did not encourage his disciples to infiltrate local Jewish councils to improve Judean society. He specifically said that his followers did not organize for warfare on his behalf. Paul said, “What have I to do with judging those outside [the church]?” 1 Cor 5:12. Christians endlessly quote the verses about being “salt” and “light” as if these constitute a mandate to clean up the world at large and make it look like the kingdom of God. It’s a tempting but unsustainable interpretation.
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We aren’t called to take over governments but we are called to make the world a better place. The parable of the sheep and the goats and the epistle of James comes to mind.
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Thanks for the comment here, Beaglelady (what do you have against Golden Retrievers? HA!) …you and Darek are presenting (in very brief) two sides of a longrunning argument — one that has existed amongst followers of Jesus (and some nonfollowers too probably) since His time. Good Samaritan efforts sometimes do require tinkering with the machinery of government — slavery, for example. And many of these private “good Samaritan” efforts have to abide by government regulations (of some sort and for good reason) which makes them, and their supporters, keen on what is going on in government. The debate on this sort of issue could and does fill whole books and inspire conferences and movements on both sides, frankly. But “nature abhors a vaccuum” and if your ideology does not inform your voting or your lifestyle —then someone else’s will. Both sides have points and both sides err in one way or the other at times. It’s an interesting discussion and something to be aware of. But no firm resolution, probably, this side of the Second Coming (at which point, government programs WILL be influenced by…)
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How true. It also brings up a big difference in our representative democracy vs. the Roman government occupying the region in Jesus’ time. We essentially are “Rome” and have the responsibility to exert our influence appropriately. If we look at authority as being God-ordained, perhaps we can go so far as to say we are instruments of God in that regard. The problem arises when we place the institution above God. Of course, the same can be said of our role in organized religion also, as we have seen the abuses that arise when the organization is valued above justice and love.
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Interesting blog on the subject, looking at David and Saul:
[quote=“bluebird1, post:56, topic:45965”]
Good Samaritan efforts sometimes do require tinkering with the machinery of government — slavery, for example. [/quote]
We don’t have to take over governments.
In my opinion, it’s not much of a discussion (outside of Evangelicalism anyway), unless we choose to ignore the words of the prophets or the teaching of Christ.
Is it okay to to cheat the poor and the sick? Discuss.
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The main problem I see with the “current posture” as I see it as a Christian observer is the fact that it attempts to impose its rules on society, rather than tries to influence and encourage people to do the right thing.
Even 45 did not try to expand his base by persuasion and discussion, but instead attacks those who disagreed with him with lies and ad hominem attacks.
Christians are called to a ministry of reconciliation which means that we are called to bring people together, not deepen divides between people of good faith. Do conservatives believe that others are people of good faith?
How can Christians excuse the demonizing of other Christians as the Tea Party did to President Obama when he was president?
Our trust must be in God and not in a 45 or we are losers.
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Thanks, Roger…agree with some things that you say, at least generally. As I said elsewhere, someone’s opinion will always prevail in society— presumably by majority vote, hopefully. If you believe it is “right” to hold the door open for a woman, then saying you won’t impose your views on others (since you are a Christian) would only mean slamming the door in someone’s face, like everyone else does. Now that, of course, is an individual thing. But a larger social issue — slavery, saving the California condor, saving the lives (or not) of the unborn — these are always things people (religious or not) take up with intent of foisting their views (which they perceive are right and apply to all) on others…
I would say that if one’s religious perspective (like any philosophy or etc) does not extend to how one functions socially, then it is no perspective at all. But. the devil is in the details on that —as has been said elsewhere.
As for “45” – and I suppose I am guessing at who has what number — what his beliefs re religion or other things, I actually do not know (and think some may have engaged in wishful thinking in this direction), and am not defending the behavior. But people with strong beliefs do tend to have problems holding their tongues (as well as fists etc) when others do not go along…And I do not presume that all members of the Tea Party are Christians, just as I do not presume that all Democrats are demon-possessed. Let’s just accept that people sometimes see things differently than others do — and we usually cannot fathom why that person thinks that way!!