Of course, if there weren’t any theists of any flavor, there would never have been nor be any nationalism or opposition to science, would there.
Well, if we pin the modern beginnings of nationalism to the French Revolution, then it has secular origins. But once nationalism exists and gets disseminated to a population, it can easily fuse with religion of the population.
And let’s not forget that opposition to scientific facts is not confined to theists.
3 Likes
? Religion
(2017) 73% Christianity
- —70% Russian Orthodoxy
- —3% Other Christian
Nationalism is in an evil synergy with religion wherever it is expressed. It is expressed most dangerously for the world in the US.
PS, so, @NickolaosPappas, what other country makes up the three heathen apart from China and India?
1 Like
Yes, I agree. I was noting evidence I can see of that sort of attitude being rather common around here.
My comment, to which you responded, was intended to serve as kind of “a spike strip” for anti-theists who might have felt inspired to rush in and dog-pile on the “Christian” part of this thread’s title.
IMO, “nationalism” is one part “stranger anxiety” and a larger part “fear in a uncomfortably unfamiliar world” which is just as possible and likely, regardless whether a nationalist is a theist or an atheist. “Opposition to Science” also is as possible among theists and atheists as “unreasonable” acceptance of nonsense just because it has a “peer-reviewed” label on it.
Do “Christians” have a monopoly on nationalism or opposition to Science? Not by a long shot. As for whether or not Christians constitute a majority moves me to ask: What is the source for that claim? IMO, true Christians can momentarily believe false things and still be righteous, but that doesn’t mean that every person who believes something false is a Christian.
Regarding the value of the information in the OP’s "Abstract, in principal, I agree: “Christian” nationalism and brain-dead opposition to something just because it’s labeled “science”, calls for a gentle nudge in the right direction from a Christian elder, or occasionally–if the Holy Spirit inspires it–a “face-palm” 
and walking away.
3 Likes
Can’t find where I pulled the 47% from (maybe my own rear end), so we’ll go with wikipedia’s number. Just out of curiosity, I grabbed a list of GDP by country and merged it with a list of religion by country. No claims to perfect accuracy, but it looked like this:
|Christian| $49,503,268,035,121 |
|None| $14,108,480,345,190 |
|Islam| $6,669,659,403,274 |
|Buddhist| $6,528,189,611,976 |
|Hindu| $2,691,867,857,867 |
|Indigenous| $427,094,491,660 |
|Judaism| $353,268,411,919 |
Klax for the win again. Christian nations’ GDP of $49.5 trillion is an order of magnitude more than the second-place “nones” $14.1 trillion.
1 Like
I am an atheist, but not an anti-theist. I would fully agree that Christians are just one group of people who oppose science. There are even atheists who oppose science.
What I think we are all focusing on are ideologies that can foster opposition to science. There are certainly ideologies within some Christian communities that are openly hostile towards science, and it is those ideologies that we, both atheist and theist alike, should criticize.
1 Like
Steady Jay, it’s only 3.5 x > China (the Nones), 8 x > the Ummah, 18 x > India. Who the heck are the Indigenous?!
NO . no no .This is false and pretty much based. The Saudi Arabia Royal House ONLY has 3 trilion itself.What is this bs?Please dont listen to Klax.Hes shown his face here multiple times.Wouldnt trust the claims
Why do American churches have their flag in their churches? Is that Christian Nationalism? So it’s not just evolution/ science, theocracy wants to control the moral agenda only to realise they are outside the sphere of influence dominated by the media.
1 Like
Richest Countries in the World 2021
- What do people think when they think about the richest countries in the world? And what comes to mind when they think about the smallest nations in the world? Some would be surprised to find out that many of the wealthiest nations are also amongst the tiniest.
*But what do we mean when we say a country is “rich,” especially in an era of growing income inequality between the rich and everyone else? While gross domestic product (GDP) measures the value of all goods and services produced in a nation, dividing this output by the number of full-time residents is a better way of determining how rich or poor one country’s population is relative to another’s. The reason why “rich” often equals “small” then becomes clear: these countries’ economies are disproportionately large compared to their small populations. - However, only when taking into account inflation rates and the cost of local goods and services can we get a more accurate picture of a nation’s average standard of living: the resulting figure is what is called purchasing power parity (PPP), which is often expressed international dollars to allow comparisons between different countries.
- | Rank | Country | Current International Dollars [GDP-PPP ($) |
|1|Luxembourg|118,001|
|2|Singapore|97,057|
|3|Ireland|94,392|
|4|Qatar|93,508|
|5|Switzerland|72,874|
|6|Norway|65,800|
|7|United States|63,416|
|8|Brunei Darussalam|62,371|
|9|Hong Kong SAR|59,520|
|10|Denmark|58,932|
|11|United Arab Emirates|58,753|
|12|San Marino|58,427|
|13|Netherlands|57,534|
|14|Macao SAR|56,078|
|15|Iceland|55,596|
|16|Taiwan Province of China|55,724|
|17|Austria|55,218|
|18|Sweden|54,146|
|19|Germany|54,076|
|20|Australia|51,680|
|21|Belgium|51,096|
|22|Finland|49,853|
|23|Bahrain|48,766|
|24|Canada|48,720|
|25|Saudi Arabia|46,811|
|26|France|46,062|
|27|Korea|44,621|
|28|United Kingdom|44,117|
|29|Malta|42,856|
|30|Japan|42,248|
|31|New Zealand|42,018|
|32|Kuwait|41,627|
|33|Italy|40,861|
|34|Czech Republic|40,618|
|35|Israel|40,547|
|36|Cyprus|40,107|
|37|Lithuania|38,824|
|38|Slovenia|40,067|
|39|Spain|39,121|
|40|Estonia|38,834|
|41|Poland|34,103|
|42|Portugal|34,043|
|43|Puerto Rico|34,025|
|44|The Bahamas|34,148|
|45|Hungary|33,030|
|46|Slovak Republic|32,709|
|47|Latvia|31,509|
|48|Romania|30,526|
|49|Turkey|30,253|
|50|Oman|30,178|
|51|Aruba|29,090|
|52|Greece|28,748|
|53|Russia|27,903|
|54|Croatia|27,717|
|55|Malaysia|27,402|
|56|Panama|27,003|
|57|Kazakhstan|26,565|
|58|Seychelles|25,414|
|59|Trinidad and Tobago|25,031|
|60|Bulgaria|23,817|
|61|Chile|23,366|
|62|Uruguay|22,459|
|63|St. Kitts and Nevis|20,987|
|64|Argentina|20,751|
|65|Mauritius|20,292|
|66|Belarus|20,187|
|67|Costa Rica|19,990|
|68|Guyana|19,684|
|69|Maldives|19,609|
|70|Montengegro|19,252|
|71|Serbia|19,146|
|72|Mexico|19,130|
|73|Antigua and Barbuda|18,618|
|74|Dominican Republic|18,608|
|75|Thailand|18,236|
|76|Equatorial Guinea|17,788|
|77|China|17,192|
|78|Botswana|16,893|
|79|North Macedonia|16,712|
|80|Turkmenistan|16,520|
|81|Gabon|15,970|
|82|Grenada|15,431|
|83|Bosnia and Herzegovina|15,047|
|84|Georgia|14,918|
|85|Brazil|14,916|
|86|Suriname|14,513|
|87|Azerbaijan|14,431|
|88|Colombia|14,324|
|89|Palau|14,309|
|90|Albania|14,218|
|91|Barbados|13,553|
|92|St. Lucia|13,359|
|93|Armenia|13,261|
|94|Sri Lanka|13,214|
|95|Ukraine|13,110|
|96|Iran|13,073|
|97|Paraguay|12,881|
|98|Moldova|12,811|
|99|Egypt|12,790|
|100|St. Vincent and the Grenadines|12,606|
|101|Indonesia|12,222|
|102|Bhutan|12,060|
|103|South Africa|12,032|
|104|Peru|11,871|
|105|Mongolia|11,825|
|106|Fiji|11,567|
|107|Lebanon|11,564|
|108|Kosovo|11,274|
|109|Algeria|11,112|
|110|Dominica|11,072|
|111|Ecuador|11,009|
|112|Vietnam|10,869|
|113|Jordan|10,306|
|114|Tunisia|10,120|
|115|Iraq|10,003|
|116|Jamaica|9,975|
|117|Nauru|9,856|
|118|Namibia|9,396|
|119|Eswatini|8,957|
|120|Philippines|8,452|
|121|El Salvador|8,422|
|122|Bolivia|8,344|
|123|Guatemala|8,293|
|124|Lao P.D.R.|8,111|
|125|Morocco|7,620|
|126|Uzbekistan|7,449|
|127|Angola|6,932|
|128|India|6,461|
|129|Cabo Verde|6,424|
|130|Tonga|6,191|
|131|Belize|6,046|
|132|Libya|5,893|
|133|Mauritania|5,834|
|134|Ghana|5,693|
|135|Samoa|5,653|
|136|Nicaragua|5,575|
|137|Honduras|5,450|
|138|West Bank and Gaza|5,388|
|139|Côte d’Ivoire|5,365|
|140|Bangladesh|5,307|
|141|Myanmar|5,242|
|142|Nigeria|5,187|
|143|Venezuela|5,178|
|144|Pakistan|5,150|
|145|Djibouti|5,096|
|146|Kyrgyz Republic|5,036|
|147|Kenya|4,926|
|148|Cambodia|4,695|
|149|Tuvalu|4,497|
|150|Republic of Congo|4,188|
|151|Sudan|4,098|
|152|Nepal|4,061|
|153|Papau new Guinea|3,833|
|154|São Tomé and Príncipe|3,829|
|155|Marshall Islands|3,786|
|156|Tajikistan|3,676|
|157|Cameroon|3,646|
|158|Senegal|3,478|
|159|Micronesia|3,446|
|160|Benin|3,437|
|161|Timor-Leste|3,382|
|162|Zambia|3,342|
|163|Comoros|3,048|
|164|Haiti|2,916|
|165|Ethiopia|2,908|
|166|Tanzania|2,821|
|167|Lesotho|2,718|
|168|Zimbabwe|2,622|
|169|Guinea|2,604|
|170|Vanuatu|2,586|
|171|Uganda|2,574|
|172|Solomon Islands|2,455|
|173|Mali|2,401|
|174|Afghanistan|2,390|
|175|Guinea-Bissau|2,348|
|176|Rwanda|2,337|
|177|The Gambia|2,276|
|178|Burkina Faso|2,262|
|179|Kiribati|2,200|
|180|Togo|2,199|
|181|Yemen|1,927|
|182|Eritrea|1,821|
|183|Sierra Leone|1,725|
|184|Chad|1,611|
|185|Madagascar|1,599|
|186|Liberia|1,557|
|187|Mozambique|1,277|
|188|Niger|1,259|
|189|Democratic Republic of Congo|1,106|
|190|Malawi|993|
|191|Central African Republic|979|
|192|Somalia|925|
|193|South Sudan|791|
|194|Burundi|760|
Very interesting and important subject. It seems to me that Christian nationalism and young earth creationism share this important feature: revisionist history. I.e. a view of the past that does not actually mesh well with historical reality. (Btw, until a few years ago I was a young earth creationist and also held very strong far right political views.)
6 Likes
I used the source below and filled in the blanks where necessary. To simplify things, I just went with the majority religion (or non-religion) of every country. What I put down as “indigenous” are folk religions or syncretistic blends of native beliefs and established religion. Here are the countries:
|Hong Kong|$341,449,340,451 |Indigenous|
|Cambodia|$22,158,209,503 |Indigenous|
|Zimbabwe|$22,040,902,300 |Indigenous|
|Mozambique|$12,645,508,634 |Indigenous|
|Madagascar|$11,499,803,807 |Indigenous|
|Benin|$9,246,696,924 |Indigenous|
|Togo|$4,757,776,485 |Indigenous|
|Central African Republic|$1,949,411,659 |Indigenous|
|Guinea-Bissau|$1,346,841,897 |Indigenous|
My source is below, and their source was the World Bank. I’m not making this stuff up.
1 Like
Yes, let’s get back on track. I think you’re right about the revisionist history aspect. (And good for you for making your way out of the YEC and alt-right mess!)
That’s a pretty good sign of it.
You’ll have to unpack this for me, brother.
1 Like
A word in defense of @klax: Don’t be so hard on him. He’s just a guy who has pushed rationality to its limits, yet still has found a way to hold onto faith. Sure, he rubs some people the wrong way, just like there are other folks on here who rub me the wrong way. (Lord knows, I rub no one the wrong way. 
) But one of these days, someone in the same frame of mind may wander into this space (or into his personal life), and Klax will be the one who speaks to her/him and helps that person hold onto their faith, if only by a thread. Okay. Off the soapbox.
3 Likes
I’m new to the forum, but boy! I like it already!..
5 Likes
Great! Welcome!
1 Like
We all are? Hmm, …
- From the article referred to in the OP and underlying the researchers’ claim to show that : “Christian nationalism—meaning the desire to see particularistic and exclusivist versions of Christian symbols, values, and policies enshrined as the established religion of the United States—is a strong and consistent predictor of Americans’ attitudes about science above and beyond other religious and political characteristics.”
- Christian nationalism is many things, but above all, it is an effort to (re)assert the dominant moral and cultural authority of a white, native-born, straight, masculine, and Christian social order. Likewise, disputes about “science and religion” are primarily conflicts over moral and cultural order. Our study shows that many of the boundary conflicts between science and religion in the United States are part of a broader effort to establish conservative Christianity as the official religious and social order of American society. In this sense, these conflicts are less about science per se and more about status politics and attempting to assert social dominance.
It seems to me that, although you may be most interested in “focusing on ideologies that foster opposition to science”, the article underlying the claim in the OP is "focused on "one ideology: the one that supports and pushes the moral and cultural superiority of a white, native-born, straight, masculine, and Christian social order that “just happens to be in favor of white, native-born, straight, Christian, male authority figures who challenge ‘Biblical liberalism’ and ‘science’.”
And I’m telling you that the OP’s article is ragging on one of my brothers and a couple of my cousins. Now, before you protest, I’ll hastily add that I can personally vouch for the fact that those guys can be a royal pain in the butt, so much so that I have as little to do with as many of them as possible in order to avoid raising my blood pressure dangerously high.
Unfortunatel, the OP’s article [Crusading for Moral Authority: Christian Nationalism and Opposition to Science] tells me that:
- “looking at issues of Christian nationalism in other countries in relation to science attitudes
would improve the current findings by situating these results in a comparative context” and - “we suspect that American citizens may be different than those in other Western and postindustrial countries, but the degree to which this is the case awaits applicable data.”
And there’s the rub: I’d sure like to see the “awaited applicable data” and a comparative analysis that looks at folks outside the narrow focus that I noticed. Till then, I’m stuck with my biased stereotype and conclusion: Christian nationalists who want to pass laws that severely limit other folks’ ability to be heathen are out of line.
3 Likes
GDP by country says nothing .LIteraly nothing.How much wealth does the Pope has that the GDP doesnt have records of hmmm?How much networth?Same with the Saudi Arabian Royal House. THese are the religious leaders not all the country all the institutions.
There is an interesting new book out about how all this came about: Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez
Edited today to add a link
2 Likes