Bradykinin storm in Covid 19

Very interesting theory about Bradykinin storm in Covid 19 patients.
Very possible relation to the beneficial therapeutic effects of vitamin D and zinc There are a good number of Bradykinin inhibitors including some steroids that can be evaluated against Covid.

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Thanks for that – I hadn’t seen anything about it before. The vitamin D and zinc connection comes from where? Nothing in the citation!

Yes it’s a very interesting paper on Bradykinin.

Shamefully and sadly our health leaders have not promoted vitamin d where there is a large body of data for vitamin d benefits versus Covid 19. Now there is a rct from Spain showing significant vitamins n d benefit. Why is the word not out there? Please tell me. Vitamin d deficiency has also been associated with Kawasaki syndrome like,e that the very small number of children come down with in Covid infection. The Bradykinin authors reference vitamin d as a potential therapy as it is known to downregulate Bradykinin effects.

There’s a lot more on vit d that I have posted

Your take on this, @glipsnort Steve (primarily about the Bradykinin storm)? I know nothing about journals, which are reputable or predatory, how important impact factors are, and so on.

I’ve heard multiple doctors and nurses say they routinely treat covid patients with vitamin D. I think that’s pretty standard now?

I don’t know how long it takes to fix a deficiency, but you’d need to see your doctor to know if you’re deficient.

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Bradykinin storm is outside my sphere of knowledge so I can’t help there – I’ll pretend to be some things but not an immunologist. I don’t see anything off about the RCT. Why the results haven’t gotten more press … probably because it’s a small pilot study published in a fairly obscure (but legit) journal.

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Thanks. :slightly_smiling_face: I should have tagged @MOls Michelle, I guess.

I dunno. Online treatment protocols from Brigham and Women’s and from Mass General don’t mention it.

No our health authorities need to step up need to tell the general public especially the higher risk but for heavens sake make sure children are getting itheir rda it’s known from other studies regular dosing is required to build up and show benefit as the active form needs to be metabolized. . This study gave the active form of vitamin d and shows benefit. This is huge. But will we here it from health authorities or even the media??? Doctors literally are befuddled why they have not recommended D. You wonder why people say that there is a conspiracy???

This is a big deal it will save tens of thousands of lives prevent hundreds of thousand hospital visits and hospitalization.

Let’s see tomorrow if anyone comes out speaking about this literally game changer breakthrough.

Maybe simply because there are such huge volumes of information being produced that it’s difficult to stay on top of what’s most important? We really don’t need to go spreading distrust and rumors (aka lies). It is unchristian.

Where did I read only last week that Francis Collins is putting in 100 hour weeks just keeping up with vaccine development.

Conspiracy theory is part of why the anti-masking crowd is so huge, and the number of deaths and the amount of suffering and heartache that everyone masking could have prevented (and still can!) will never be known.

Well facts are facts and don’t change when you choose to ignore them.

I agree we dropped the ball from the start we just didnt understand the virus well. Masks would have prevented much of the spread but the virus is incredibly contagious and more insidious than we could have imagined.

But many mistakes were made by the health leaders. The failure to recommend standard of care administration of dexamethsone caused tens of thousands of lives. This decision was made only by a theoretical paper in the lancet not science based.

Since the beginning of the outbreak we knew vitamin D would be beneficial to preventing severe infections outcomes. This would have saved tens of thousands of lives and ignifacantky reduced hospitalization. This vitamin d administration shows a 97% reduction in icu admission. A doctor that doesn’t give this vitamin d active form to a risk patient is negligent,

I don’t even want touch hydroxychloroquine except say that it’s not a game changer but we continue to see beneficial trials latest from Belgium while the Oxford and WHO trials unbelievably administratered twice the recommended dosage?? Again what where they thinking???

What makes you say that dexamethasone was “standard of care” at the beginning of the pandemic? The doctors were and have been working furiously to treat patients going off of very limited information and experience back then. There are good reasons that doctors would be concerned about administering steroids to a patient who is battling an infection, because steroids inhibit the immune system. Now there is more evidence based information from randomized control trials (RCTs), such that the doctors now know more and can adjust their thinking. Why are you demonizing hard working doctors who were just working with the best information they had at the time?

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Because that’s what conspiracists do.

The WHO then the cdc made the recommendation based on no Clinical evidence. They based this on a theoretical article from the lancet that one of the authors later basically retracted . At the time there was exports from China that the steroids were beneficial. They should not have made the recommendation as standard of care and let the docs decide to proceed with standard of care for pneumonia . Just like ventilators were found not to be b neficial to some patients we hand tied our responders to treating this disease as if we knew how to treat it but we didn’t. It was and is a terrible mistake that led to thousands of unnecessary deaths.

And now we wait for the vitamin d and calcitriol recommendation. If remdisivir showed these benefits we would be all over it?

Yes, there have been mistakes, and you are making at least one now.

Vitamin D deficiency is highly prevalent in the population and can predispose to both autoimmune disease and increase susceptibility to infections, in addition to being important for bone maintenance. Thus, primary care doctors check for vitamin D deficiency in standard blood work during annual well visits and recommend supplementation (as my husband and I both take). I do not think you can jump from here to “doctors are negligent.” What is the basis for your strong condemnation of doctors who have been working hard to treat these patients with the best information they had at the time? Especially because the 3 articles you posted are from July and September of this year. What are your credentials to judge these cases?

I hope that it is evident that I am all for taking vitamins, including vitamin D, but I am against disparaging and condemning hard-working doctors during these challenging and unprecedented times.

I found the article you posted in the OP was very interesting, so thank you for sharing that.

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Where are you getting this information about corticosteroid treatment?
It is completely reasonable that without good information otherwise (which they now have due to RCTs) that doctors early on during the pandemic would worry about giving steroids to patients who are battling an infection, because steroids inhibit immune responses. Corticosteroids are given as one main line of therapy to inhibit immune responses of people with autoimmune diseases. Steroid treatment increases infection risk in those patients. I can tell you this one fact alone due to my experience and training in the Rheumatology Department at Johns Hopkins Medical School. What is your training?

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Michelle. You came into this discussion a bit late. I am not in any way trying to disparage medical providers in any way. They are truly heroes and it is difficult times for sure. I am getting my information from front line doctors and they know what happened and are qualified. We had bad information from the start thinking they were treating classical ARDS. As we know now it is much more complicated disease… From the beginning doctors have been saying to recommend vitamin d prophylactically based on research on respiratory disease and continued research mp,uncaring vitamin d deficiency in Covid severity.

Now we have a rct using the activated vitamin d form calciferol showing high significant benefit. Vitamin d requires metabolism by the liver into the active form which may take a week or so giving calciferol would show immediate benefit in Covid patients versus vitamin d. Based on this study it would be indicated that a doctor give calciferol to a hospitalized higher risk patient. As you mention it is known that a high percent f the population is vitamin d deficient coincidentally the same population that is high risk for Covid.

Now we have a group doing a very impressive study using supercomputer analysis implicating a Bradykinin storm in the pathogenesis. Granted it’s a theory but the authors point out that vitamin d is shown to mitigate Bradykinin activity.

So the question is why aren’t we recommending people to take vitamins d? And yes a doctor treating a high risk patient based on this rct would be negligent to not administer calciferol early as risk benefit ratio is low.

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