There is no center of expansion. Everywhere is expanding at the same rate.[quote=“still_learning, post:165, topic:36495”]
Or in a different dimension, since He is outside of time.
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If you are outside spacetime then relativity no longer applies and you have lost the mechanism you are using to explain the time difference.
I don’t understand how an omnipresent God could be described as moving from one point to another.
Jesus is God…Did Jesus get “planted” into time as we know it? Earth speed relativety?
If you are outside time space, it doesn’t mean you can’t be inside it, it just means you aren’t confined by it.
Again, did Jesus not walk from one place to another? Did God not move via cloud or pillar of fire with the Israelites?
Not confined by spacetime, but can move in and out of it.
Why couldn’t God have “planted” Himself in the clear ball time while the universe was in the black ball? There is no reason why not. This theory is completely possible from a time relative standpoint.
Then if God is inside spacetime and has a velocity then God will be speeding towards some objects and away from others. That doesn’t fit your model.
No, you are thinking too linear… God could orbiting around like the planets to a star or electrons to an atom, not moving towards or away from, but moving much faster than.
There has to be an absolute center even if 1micro meter from the center expands to end up 1 meter from the center, the absolute center is still there, even if the same matter that was close to the center is now expanded and further from it.
It may seem counter-intuitive, but there doesn’t need to be an absolute center or any center at all. Google: “Does the universe have a center”. Read.
Is @still_learning the same person as @Daniel_Pech ?
They dispute fringe ideas in virtually identical ways…
Or, you can look at it as if every point is the center. Sort of mind blowing.
@still_learning has sparked a discussion that emphasizes how varied are the worldviews of the Forum contributors. One view seems fairly constant: “God exists outside of time”. What is the history of that view, Christy? Personally, I have a great deal of difficulty with that as the foundation of theology. I accept the evidence for a Big Bang event that ushered in the concept of Time, but to believe in a God who cares about me, He must exist where I exist–i…e. in Time. Of course Jesus fills that role–God living with us, struggling with us, loving with us, dying with us–in Time. He is the Word, the Instructions of how He wants us to live out our lives in Time. To me, all our attempts to use science to retrace the history of our earth–paleontology & the theory of evolution–are interesting exercises intellectually, but we must be careful that they do not distract us from hearing the Word that God sent to us some 2,000 yrs. ago.
Holy Scripture may well be the inspired concepts that God wishes humans to consider, but they must be framed in Human words that can be mistranslated, misunderstood through the passage of time. And science is an ever-shifting attempt to ascertain the truth without the expectation of achieving a finished product. So using both ‘tools’, and keeping an open mind seems like the best course to leading a life that is pleasing to our Creator. @still_learning seems to be making an honest effort along these lines.
Al Leo
Those were physical representations of God’s presence. They weren’t God.
God can’t be “orbiting” anything. That would imply that He is first on one side and then on the other. The reality is He is on all sides at the same time. He is everywhere at every time.
Perhaps even center wasn’t the proper terminology. Singularity is what meant referring to the “center” (as in metaphorically revolves around it or is referenced to it) that can’t be denied.
The universe being a thing (black sphere) that is confined to spacetime and has a velocity, and God being able to be outside this, can build a thing (clear sphere) that He travels in to create the simultaneous truths that it took both 13.7 billion years and 6 days to create the universe. Again, not saying what did happen, but what could have happened.
Ok, so why can’t He create a vessel with a representation of Him that experienced 6 days?
Same as above. If He wanted it to take 6 days, a representation of Himself could be placed in a vessel that that could have orbited and happened.
Was Jesus in heaven when He was on earth? Did 3 days elapse for God? Did time stop for Jesus as He took on all of our sins? Was He in an eternity of sufferening and foresakeness from God? Is that the experience of hell? Jesus would have died for us regardless.
Was the Holy Spirit placed in a vessel to make it 6 days?
We can’t comprehend the Holy Trinity or the concept of omniscience or omnipresence. If one is everywhere, are they required to move or can they move? So are they confined then if they can’t move? Just like someone or something can’t be 3 separate things and 1, something can’t be everywhere, yet move. Just because we can’t comprehend or explain it, that doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Which I know any theory could claim this and then everything is possible. But I still have not found logic to refute my time warp theory.
It is really hard to conceive, but from our physical perspective, there is nothing outside of the universe, so it is not an expanding sphere within a empty space. I think there was an old Star Trek episode where the universe was shrinking, and that was part of the strangeness- there was nothing outside of it, not even “nothing.”
God obviously must exist within the universe, but also in eternity, but I really cannot understand what that means. Someday we will,
If He wanted it to happen in 6 planck seconds it could. If He wanted it to happen in 6 billion years it could. With God all things are possible so why do you keep trying to pin Him down to 6 days? There is no need except to force a literal reading on a text that wasn’t intended to be read literally.
If you are everywhere how do you move from where you are to where you are not? Can’t be done.
I’m not trying to pin God down. I’m simply stating if that account was literal ( that would be Him pinning it down, not me), it could make logic sense according to our laws and constants that both time beliefs are correct.
There is no need to make 7 days, but there are parallels that can be used if it was a literal 7 days. If it turns out it wasn’t a literal 7 days, it doesn’t invalidate the sabbath, but can be used as a parallel, if it did occur that way.
The same way you can be 3 separate beings and be the same one being at the same time. It’s something that we can’t comprehend, but it is true.
I never really thought about that before though, that God can’t move, as He has no need to move as He is omnipresent. Although it speaks of Him sitting on a throne, which is a location and a metaphor for in charge. Again, omnipresence is something we just can’t fathom.
But again like the pillars of fire or Jesus, physical representations of Himself can and were physical moved and if of those physical representations could have witnessed the creation in 6 days.
Since God is outside of time, there is no amount of time for Him to create everything. But for us created in time in our universe, it took 13.7 billion years. But if He wanted it to also have been created in 7 literal days (to later parallel that with working 6 days and resting the 7th), it could be assigned and witnessed by a physical representation of God to have taken 7 days.
I can’t speak for everyone, but to me outside of time doesn’t literally mean outside of it and not with us in it, rather it means not confined by it.
I agree. I think He does live with us in the time we live, but I believe He is not confined by only the time I live in. He died for me 2000 years ago and that atonement transcends time and applies to me still today if I accept it. That is what I mean by outside of time.
A glimmer of how to take Genesis 1.
And where exactly do you find that idea in Scripture? You seem to be just making this up as you go as a means to maintain a literal reading of Genesis. And another question is where in Genesis is it recorded who exactly witnessed the Creation? Where did the story come from?
I don’t know. I guess you would have to google “history of the doctrine of transcendence.”
It is supposed to be balanced with the doctrine of immanence.
I’m not even saying (anymore) I believe this is how it is. What I am saying is if it was a literal translation, this time warp theory reconciles it, and a theory of parallels give it reasoning as to why it would have been literal.
Why did Jesus fast for 40 days? Why did it rain for 40 days? Maybe these are metaphors for a time of training,tribulation, testing and preparation? Or maybe these are literal parallels that validates each other?
If a literal creation account did occur, it would be using parallels to validate the importance of having a sabbath and resting on it on the 7th day.
I think you mean if it was literal history.
Exactly. 40 is a symbolic number that refers to a time of trial, testing or probation. The meaning is not an exactly 40 day period. The meaning is in the number not the days. Just like 7 can represent perfection or completion.
A great video explains this concept from @gbrooks9 here TEDx Talks - With Inspirational Messages on the Unity of Science & Religion
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