One thing I have learned in life, if that there is nothing as rare as an original idea. I am having a little problem following your examples, but trying to put it in a way that I think I understand, let me make a scenario.
Jonah sits down
God wants him to have a shade under which to contemplate what just happened.
God creates a vine, that let us say he planted two years ago so it would have maturity to grow to a shade, but was not there whenJonah sat down.
Was it there yesterday? Does God change the past to achieve his purpose today?
That last question is not as strange as it seems, as in some respect, people pray for that to happen all the time. People ask God that âthe biopsy be benignâ when the tumor has been there for months or years, and to make it benign would be to change the genetic mutations that may have started decades earlier. Thus to change the biopsy would be to change the past. Yet we probably all have asked similar things.
I donât think these things are within our understanding, and am ok with that. But, I still think God would not lead people away from him by planting false evidence.
By the way, while I used Jonah, I tend to see his story as probably a parable.
Still faked. Just like the fake bodies in Game of Thrones after a battle. Faked stuff happens all the time in movie productions, stage productions, Disney attractions, operas, etc. Great for entertainment.
But if somebody fabricated a human body that looked like the real thing and told the police that it was a corpse, what would you think of that?
Thanks, interesting read. That just blew my mind and that part of my theory. Some super intelligent people on this forum.[quote=âjpm, post:21, topic:36495â]
Was it there yesterday? Does God change the past to achieve his purpose today?
That last question is not as strange as it seems, as in some respect, people pray for that to happen all the time. People ask God that âthe biopsy be benignâ when the tumor has been there for months or years, and to make it benign would be to change the genetic mutations that may have started decades earlier. Thus to change the biopsy would be to change the past. Yet we probably all have asked similar things.
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I donât know if God needs to change the past to achieve his purpose since He is outside of time and knows all things. He allowed Joseph to be sold to slavery, which was thought to be a bad thing, until he ended up saving the Israelite by saving for food. Men meant it or perceived it as evil, but God for good. I do know that God heals supernaturally, we canât explain that with science, as any thing super natural is not natural, it is outside our laws. Though I pray for what I desire, but always end my prayers with âThy will be doneâ. That is part of my relationship with God, to talk to Him, though He knows what I need before I ask it. But I also know that He is just and wise and knows what is best for me and the rest of the world, and I donât want anything outside of His will to occur. As Joseph might have prayed for His captures to go blind or something temporarily so that he could escape back to his father. Then the Israeliteâs would have starved to death years later. Our feeble minds donât know what is best for us or the rest of the world. So though I might pray for healing, it is not something I wish to happen if it is outside of Gods will, I canât see the big picture and that requires faith and trust in Him that He knows best.
It is possible that it was a parable, but if it wasnât, it seems that a plant grew quicker than it would in our natural world, under out natural rules of time.
I still donât see that as false evidence though, something that really did occur, just in a different realm of time that we know today.[quote=âbeaglelady, post:22, topic:36495â]
Still faked. Just like the fake bodies in Game of Thrones after a battle. Faked stuff happens all the time in movie productions, stage productions, Disney attractions, operas, etc. Great for entertainment.
But if somebody fabricated a human body that looked like the real thing and told the police that it was a corpse, what would you think of that?
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I havenât seen the show, but I am aware of it. The writers arenât trying to deceive you, quite the opposite, they are trying to tell you a story, a story of a war, and after that war, dead bodies are on the ground. Surely it isnât a real dead human in life as we know it, but fake actors/dummies/CG to make bodies appear to continue a story and paint a picture for those who watch it.
Why do you care if a tree fell and you werenât around to see it. we both agree a tree fell, another one grew, ect. time elapsed. We both agree on that. And we both agree it took 80 years (13.7 bill years) for these events to occur. I am simply stating that time can be relative, and it could have also took a week (6000 years). I think a YEC only who believes that a mountain was just placed there, it didnât have plates colliding ect. Or they believe a 100â tree just appeared with rings and roots, I do think that might be a little deceptive, that is a false tree/mountian/earth/star with no history. I am speaking of a real history, that really occurredâŚjust much faster than time moves for us now in the beginning, during its creation.
But when we uncover the history in rocks, we find a history that shows things not really compatible with the âperfect creationâ envisioned by YECs, pre-Fall. So the question remains, why would God put a history of death, disease, predation and creatures that never actually existed, (or existed in some sped up time, in which case, why was that sped up history full of âbadâ things that supposedly hadnât entered the pristine new world yet) in the mature rocks he created during creation week. AIG recognizes this as a problem, which is why they insist that all those rocks had to be created during the global Flood.
[quote] But we get into difficulty if we say that during Creation Week God supernaturally created the thousands of feet of sedimentary rocks containing billions of impressions in the rocks that looked like (but were not) the fossilized remains of plants and animals (because those creatures would never have existed). God is neither a liar nor a deceiver (Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2), yet this scenario would involve God in deception for several reasons.
First, having impressions in the rocks that look like fossils of former living things is not needed for fully formed, mature rocks. Many sedimentary rocks have no fossils, yet are just as suitable to be used for construction material as rocks that contain fossils. So why make rocks with impressions that look like the fossilized remains of former living things?
Second, a great percentage of those fossils show evidence of disease (including cancer), arthritis, carnivorous activity and violent death (even being buried alive). Having such bizarre and grotesque impressions in rocks would certainly not make them better rocks. What conceivable purpose would God have for creating stones with impressions that look like the diseases we have today and which we and God call evil? It would seem to be deliberate deception on Godâs part to make us think that those impressions in the rocks are the fossilized remains of animals that lived with disease and ate one another, when in fact those rocky impressions were simply His creations during His âvery goodâ Creation Week.
Third, some of those impressions in the rocks are not completely stone, but are partially organic material virtually identical to the organic material in very similar living creatures today. What conceivable purpose would God have for creating such partially fossilized organic material? Again, it would appear to be deception.[/quote]
The only reason I can see a YEC-only person to believe what they believe is because of what they were indoctrinated with growing up. If we can literally measure something to be billion years old, how can you refute that?
The only reason I think anyone canât change their mind to a paradigm they have is that that paradigm is their foundation. If that thing is proven to be wrong, then everything else must be wrong and they are brought into a tsunami. That is why Jesus is the only true rock and foundation with which to stand on. His truth will never change nor be proven wrong. That is why I do enjoy a debate and learning, but to get angry and insult is wrong (though I am sure I do it at times as we all sin, though I try not to and pray for strength and donning the armor of God), it cuts down people and turns them away from the truth and grace and justice of love of God. I canât say I know, because that would void faith, but God has revealed to me with a logical faith that seems like certainty, to know that God created us to have a relationship with Him, and Jesus is the only way back to Him, and outside of that foundation, nothing can shake it, it is grounded to the core. So if you tell me the ark has been proven to not have existed. might not believe your science was real, but if you could prove it, it wouldnât shake me, that ark is not my foundation is any Bible story. It would mean that I am not interpreting it correctly or something, but it doesnât change who God is or who He created me to be.
The reason I say logical faith is because I have knowledge of these things, but I am weak, and human, and fail so many times to live that faith. Thanks be to God, He doesnât look at our past, and allows us to try our best every day, and helps us if we remember to turn to Him and grow closer to Him. Because we canât do it on our own, but only through the help of the holy spirit inside us.
I do believe the Bible is inspired by God, much like many sermons at church are inspired by God. The Bible is just the first reference with which to preach from. It all says the same things over and over, and that is all a sermon is, repeating something already said/written and God can use that to speak to us through revelation. When Jesus told us not to be angry that is as bad as murder, that wasnât new, that was just explaining what that commandment meant originally and that it has always been about the heart. Most of the Bible is historical, the rest of it is just restating or explaining what was already said. God reveals Himself to everyone so that they are without an excuse, and all who seek will find. Regardless of if you have a Bible or not or know the actual age of the earth or meaning of the 7 days. And He can use it to bring us to Him, and reflect His glory so that all may know Him.
But that is why I believe many people insult over their beliefs or paradigm/worldview is attacked, their world view is their sandy foundation and they have to defend it or they panic when they see the waves coming.
@still_learning If youâd rather not study genetics (a really big part of the previous course), there is also a course called Evolution Today. I havenât taken this particular course though, but most coursera courses Iâve taken have been very interesting. Let me know what you think!
Obviously, the only things that concern us here are things that indicate the age of the Earth. You canât make thousands of fossils, pressed between hundreds of sedimentary layers, in 6000 years. Fossils are not created in less than 10,000 years.
So, instead of asking me futile questions, ask yourself what would God be doing making fake fossils for animals that never lived to take a breath?
That is my point! For entertainment purposes itâs fine, because there is an understanding that we are suspending our disbelief for the sake of being entertained. But if you made a realistic fake bloody body, left it in the road, and then reported it to the police, what would happen? Is that not deception?
Would you care if every day God destroyed almost everything on earth except you, replacing everything with totally new people, animals, plants, topsoil formed instantly, etc. And a house for you that is brand new but has peeling paint and other signs of aging⌠And cancelled checks showing that you have been paying a mortgage for 10 years to a bank that was created instantly. And a garden with tomato plants, and even weeds. And in your house you had canned tomatoes you never grew or bought. And what if he implanted false memories into your head of moving into this house, growing tomatoes and canning them, and sharing them with the new people you think you have lived alongside a long time. Would it matter to you?
Why couldnât you have life and death of animals and they get buried and fossilized over a few million years in one week? Why is that deceitful? I am saying that these things possibly occurred exactly as you as scientist say. Thousand of feet of sedimentary rocks containing billions of impressions in the rocks that were fossilized remain of plants and animals. If the universe occurred in 1 day over 13.7 billion years, why could not the all of these fossils have been truely and historically made in 1 day over a few million years? Could God not have enjoyed watching the animals roam over the earth over millions of years (time lapse years).
It seems to me like you think I am a YEC only believer? I believe all of that happened. I just think it was all as @r_speir said, the winemakers time.
Why is disease and arthritis grotesque? It is what it is. One mans trash is another mans art. Multiple facets of existence. It might not make them better rocks, that might not have been the intent. The intent might have been to let it be as it is. God could have created us to have steel bones and they wouldnât break, but then they might rust, or we would need larger muscles to move them, and larger hearts to pump blood ect. I canât claim to know why God did what He did. But He did do what He did, and allows it to play out. However humans were not subject to these diseases or malfunctions until they fell away from God. And one day again we will not mourn nor thirst, nor hunger, nor die. God created animals and they have bones and bones get arthritis, and diseases that help end the life of them, so new ones can be created and not overpopulate the earth. If there were no faults in these animals, and they could breed, they would overpopulate the earth and there would be no room for humans, These as you call them âgrotesqueâ things could have had a great purpose. Unfortunately after the fall, these things now happen to us, but they are also reminders to trust in God like the thorn in Paulâs side. A blessing in disguise?
I canât say for certain, God has not revealed it to me. But like I explained above, just because our feeble minds canât understand or explain, doesnât imply deception. A child who is getting disciplined for not looking both ways sees the discipline as mean or unjust, but the parent who is much more wise, knows it is to save their life, so they look both ways and donât get hit. Not insulting you,humans compared to God have feeble minds. I am not saying this proves my theory either, I am simply saying, just because we canât explain or understand something, doesnât make it deception.
Because the only reason for positing this would be an unassailable commitment to a literal interpretation of Genesis 1. It makes more sense to me to re-evaluate the interpretation, and seeing that there are other solid, Bible honoring interpretations that donât require positing an unlikely, unprovable, warp speed history, those options are just rationally and intuitively more attractive to me. And I think warp speed history introduces theological problems with the problem of evil. If we are taking Genesis 1 literally on the time part, why arenât we taking it literally on the no death (or other ânatural evilsâ like disasters and disease) before the Fall part? Unless you are just saying you want OEC theology, but the young earth time frame. I still donât see why the literal week is so compelling though.
Iâm not sure you read what I put down, or I conveyed it correctly. I think some are understanding my point, but I donât think you are. More than 10,000 elapsed, fossils were created over 4 million yearsâŚtime relativity. I canât really expand on that any more.
Who said God wasnât entertained watching the creatures He created living life? We enjoy watching cats on youtube being silly. Again, I am not arguing the earth wasnât 4 million years old.
I think you and gbrooks are barking up the wrong tree. Debating things we both agree on. Stuff wasnât magically placed there, stuff wasnât props, stuff actually occurredâŚtime relativity, you are not still on your couch, you are moving 23.000 mphâŚ
I am not sure I follow where you are going with this either. Though it would not change who God is, and if it did, it couldnât happen. But I live my life to give God the glory whether or not God created this world and everything in it and its history just so I can live my life as I do now or not. The history of how things may or may not have occurred doesnât change my purpose in life. I do like to debate on it and learn, but my intent was not to upset.
That is one of the reasons, but not the only reason. I read that post that you posted about the non-sabbath creation. And I never heard of it like that, it makes quite a bit of sense. I have said I have an open mind, and am constantly re-evaluating my thoughts, and the sabbath on day 7 is one thing I am currently in a journey over. But there are other things that make my theory very simple in my mind. Some scientist say the OEC are using false data and radioactive dating is proven to have errors ect. So there are some things YEC say that still leans me towards my theory, but like I said, my mind is open.
There are others that seem to debate those Bible honoring interpretations, which causes me to me more skeptic of them as well, and like I said, for now, my theory seems more rational to me. Its just one simple factor, just a time increase.
I am taking it literal, there was no death or disasters or disease that occurred to man. There is nothing saying the animals didnât have that. It also doesnât speak of animals in heaven, having no thirst or being glorified. I think man fell into the broken world, which already existed. So I donât think warp speed history introduces a theological problem there. But I enjoy that you understand my the point of my âwarp speedâ theory. Death is only a problem for humans, as we have such a short finite time to acknowledge, know and accept God while we are alive to ensure our time with Him in eternity. Animals canât know God like us, they werenât created in His image. I am not saying we should torture them, we should be good stewards as commanded, but their death and disease isnât a problem for us or God. He created to them to be what they are, and they had a bunch of bad stuff that happens to them, and tha tstuff didnât happen to usâŚuntil the fall.
I do follow you there what you are saying here.
It just seems that all scripture is God breathed, why would He deceive us if it wasnât in 6 days? I do understand that that Bible is not every word for word literal, as in psalms God âcovers us with His wingsâ isnât a literal winged God covering us, rather the poetic symbol of a eagle hiding/protecting its young from danger. So I know not all of it is literal. Or in numbers when it says 40 thousand men, it could have been 43,242 people, but it rounds numbers and they are not crucial to the telling of a story. And again, it is not really that important as to the how, Genesis is more of a why book, and a what happened book.
However, it isnât a poetic book, so why would they be inspired to write a day, why not âIn the beginng God created this. Then He created thatâ? Then no one would think of YEC (other than dark ages before they had science to show them and they used genealogy to date the earth). So why does it âgo out of its wayâ to state 6 days? That is why it is so compelling to me.
Genesis 1-2 is a poem, or hymn if you like. Think the Psalms. Historical narrative is not written in poetic form in the OT. Answering the why question is certainly the reason for the book, but the what happened part is really not there.
This is not original with me, but you have surely noticed the chorus after each of the 6 days. You know âAnd there was evening and there was morning, the X dayâ. How much history have you read that includes a repeating chorus? How many hymns have you sung that included a repeating chorus?
And why is dating the surrounding material insufficient? Archeologists apply carbon-dating to the materials surrounding important artifacts so that they donât destroy the artifacts. Are archeologists misinformed, too?
In other words, I donât see a problem here. People who have devoted lifetimes to geology are confident in their technologies. To me, your criticism seems misdirected.
Iâm a little baffled by your chronology. So, you are an Old Earther. But you keep using time in the millions. Do you concur that Earth is 4+ billion years?