BioLogos Irony (YEC/OEC)


#137

That is just a part of the story. When a prophet wants to invoke the authority of God he always said Thus says the lord.

If it is not verbatim how can you call it a quote? A quote is supposed to be the words said.

Not sure what you were trying to say but God can in a sense go back in time. God created time and therefore exists outside of time. From our perspective He exists in an eternal now. I have said before that God’s Now is the same Now yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Ascribing the passage of time to God just doesn’t work. That is why your theory falls apart.

God is everywhere at the same time. He would be in every possible frame of reference at the same time so you can’t say He is outside of any frame of reference.

Velocity doesn’t work the same way as relativity. [quote=“still_learning, post:136, topic:36495”]
He created what He created, and it took Him time of happening to create it
[/quote]

No he created by command and it didn’t take any amount of time at all. This is why some of the earth church fathers didn’t think the 6 days were 6 literal days.


#138

He isn’t a prophet though…

That doesn’t mean he wasn’t speaking the words from God.

Apparently that is just what the English decided to do in their translations. But the quote might just mean a paraphrase, so the concept is unchanged, but a few words might be different. But numbers in a quote or paraphrase aren’t changed.

What proof or evidence do you have of this?

I agree, and have said that…I said God is outside of it reference. But not outside the time of happening. I don’t know the proper word to explain that if there is a word. But once something happens, it can’t be undone. Like if you stab someone, that is done, you stabbed them. Sure God could heal it up in seconds so it is if you didn’t, but in the truth time of happening, you did.

There are plenty of references of God manipulating the time reference, but not one that I am aware of, where God changes the past.

I agree. Where have I said different?

I am not ascribing a passage of time to God. I am saying He ascribed a passage if time to us. he wanted 7 days to pass, so it did.

Not stating that as fact…stating that in my theory, this is how it works…just to clarify.

I know they don’t…it’s an analogy I attempt to help people conceptualize…

Ok, this is what you believe. I just wouldn’t state that as fact. We are all guessing as to what this would have looked like.

Like that video showed, quicksilver ran around and did all kinds of things. But to those watching, it happened instantly.

I could picture God speaking something, and like a potter forming clay, a sculpture comes to life. And tone person next to God watching, it happened so fast, it did happen instantly.

I do think God could have made it happen instantaneously, but I don’t believe He did. I believe He wanted it to take 1 day each step, so He made it tame 1 day. And then He told us that it took 1 day.

Just like EC believes God could have created the universe in 7 days and created things as if it was old, but they don’t Believe He did.

It is just my beliefs or theory of how I think it could have happened, and it just so happens to not violate any laws of physics, it agrees/works with evolution and any other scientific finding, and it also happens to agree with the literal genesis 1 account.

I am not sayin all of genesis is literal, but I believe gen 1 was.

Just like biologos believes not all the Bible is literal, but some parts are.

Some early church fathers also though the earth was flat, and the sun moved around us…people think things and have theories. It doesn’t make them right nor give any weight to an theory.

I am not saying I am right, I just don’t think lost understand my theory first. So I can’t really defend my theory as it seems arguments are coming up that my theory doesn’t speak of.

There is the potential I am wrong, in which case i my misinterpretation of genesis, I am ascribing time to God, which I agree would not work. However if the interpretation is literal, then God would be the one ascribing time to us.


#139

Definition of quote. repeat or copy out (a group of words from a text or speech), typically with an indication that one is not the original author or speaker.
Definition of paraphrase. express the meaning of (the writer or speaker or something written or spoken) using different words

If it is not a quote it is not repeating the words God said.

I don’t need evidence. God exists outside of time. It is hard to wrap your mind around, but He is everywhere and in every time. So He is currently viewing, if you will, 13 billion years ago and at the same time viewing next week.

We are constrained to what is called the arrow of time. To us time only moves forward. God is not because he exists outside of time.

I never said that He did. To God the past is His now. Just like tomorrow is His now.

How is this different from just telling the story of creation as if it occurred over 6 days? I see no difference.

You might want to reread Genesis. Genesis 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
God said and there was. No indication of a passage of time.

It shows people have not always read Genesis 1 to represent 6 literal days so you might want to consider that idea.

Interpretations are created by us and are not inspired or infallible. Each person choses how he/she will interpret Scripture. What you keep calling your theory is really just your interpretation.


(George Brooks) #140

This perception of “same type” is a curious bi-product of having blinders against seeing the Earth as very old.

For you and other YECs, you see horses and cows and lions being produced all in the same week as dinosaurs and trilobites.

But once one looks at the plain evidence for the age of the Earth, all of a sudden one has a extremely difficult problem to solve - - which only Evolution solves:

All Dinosaurs are found buried under the K-T boundary, and all the large mammals are found buried above the K-T boundary. And in all the layers above and below that boundary, we find fossilized patterns from rain drops, from creatures walking to and from their meals, we find primitive land plants in the very lowest of these layers, while the more interesting plants that evolved after insects arrived on land, are not found mixed in with the primitive plants, but only in the upper layers.

For those watching for modern-type horses, lions and bears . . . their location in the fossil stack is quite perplexing, beause anything looking modern is quite high in the stack, and when following the trail of these large mammals back into time, when they disappear, all of a sudden we find other variations that are distinct from the modern phenotypes.

So, we are left with the notion that God invoked the presence of these modern mammals at various times and locations… creating fossils that materialize - - basically - - from nowhere.

Or we conclude that these animals, like the ring species of our prior discussions, came from somewhere … and that given enough time, the aggregation of micro-evolutionary events produces proto-whales with legs, preceded by Hippo-like mammals with more aquatic features than the original Hippos.

We conclude that “speciation within a type”, given enough time, very frequently turns into a very different kind of population… because what you and I call a “type” is not something that chromosomes recognize as immutable. Shapes, colors, sizes and behaviors all shift with genetic changes, until it becomes more or less obvious that the newer population is no longer anything like what the older population was.


#141

I agree. Viewing and knowing the last and the future, and knowing this and probably every contingency and the last wave of the “butterfly effect” from a change in the present, He can change, the present and the future, and He knows the present and the future, and the past, but I do not believe He can change the past. I could be wrong, and if He did, we would never know He did, but I see no references or accounts of God ever changing the past.

So that being believed, the past happened, it is in essence, a time of happening.

I agree and have said God is outside of time. But not really outside of happening, or the past, or what I refer to as time of happening, because there is no word for it. I think since the word “time” is in it, it confuses. I have no proof or any reference to God ever effecting the past. Or maybe He can, but doesn’t want to, because that somewhat would affect free will. If a choice could be undone, it’s not really the freedom to chose. That is what makes choices to dire, they can’t be undone. The future could be manipulated to atone for what has been done, but it can’t be never happened.

And in this happening of things that occurred, God could have allowed 7 days to pass, while He speed up time as we know it today, to form the universe over 13.7 billion years.

I’m not sure I agree with that. Because He can change the now, but not the past.

It’s not different.

Im confused that you have a problem with it taking 7 days to create the universe, yet you are ok with it happened instantaneously? From no passage of time to 13.7 billion years? I thought EC believes it happened over 13.7 billions year?

A theory based on my interpretation. That I keep testing my hypothesis, and it keeps standing true, so it is a theory.

I’m not saying it is true, I just haven’t found it to be untrue yet.

@gbrooks9

Sorry you took the time to write that above post, you responded to an older post of mine. I am leaning much more towards “macro-evolution” now. I understand how speciation occurs in animals. Like I understand how like biologos videos speak of that pakicetus evolved to a whale. Legs couldn’t handle the weight, no need for legs etc. that’s logical.

But how did animals or insects start? From cells? That is more than speciation right?


#142

Before the past happened God already knew what was going to happen. He knew every decision that was going to be made and the consequences of those decisions. If He wanted to change “the past” He could do so before the past became the past.

God creates by command. How long it takes that command to be completed is a different question. Which is why I don’t believe the 6 days of creation are literal days when we know that creation took longer than 6 days.


A.Suarez's Treatment on a Pope's Formulation for Original Sin's Transmission!
A.Suarez's Treatment on a Pope's Formulation for Original Sin's Transmission!
(Chris Falter) #143

Hi SL,

Hope you are doing well by God’s grace today.

If God has no frame of reference for measuring time, then how can we speak meaningfully of the passage of time for Him?

Grace and peace,
Chris Falter


#144

Speed didn’t affect the rate at which those clocks tick. Speed changed spacetime itself.[quote=“still_learning, post:136, topic:36495”]
No…that’s true… Time dilution
[/quote]

First, it is time dilation. Second, time dilation states that time ticks at the same rate within a frame of reference no matter what your acceleration is. Time dilation only applies to two objects that are moving at different speeds. If you are on the ship you will be moving the same speed of the ship, so there will be no difference in the passage of time while you are on the ship in the ship’s frame of reference.[quote=“still_learning, post:136, topic:36495”]
If you speed up time, than the speed remains constant. In the example above, the person next to God watching the creation of the universe.
[/quote]

If you speed up time to pack in Earth’s history into 6-10,000 year period then you have some serious problems. For example, radioactive decay will increase greatly which will fry all life on Earth.


(George Brooks) #145

@still_learning, how interesting.

First of all, we have to agree that for the purposes of this thread, we are not talking about “life from lifeless matter”. I am addressing your questions about insects (which are considered animals).

[[ When you clarify what you meant when you asked about “animals” in your post above - - could you have meant “mammals”? - - I can broaden my discussion.]]

Insects are classified as “Arthropods” - -

Approximately 97% of all animal species are invertebrates (which can also included shell fish, squid, octopus, jellyfish and worms). But the bulk of invertebrates are arthropods, with the bulk of arthropods being Insects (six legged animals with exoskeletons).

There are a few small groups of six legged arthropods that are not insects, but we’ll talk about them some other day.

In the article linked above (on Hexapods), it introduces the latest belief that the closest surviving group related to the insects would be crustaceans.

One theory for how insects emerged is that they broke away from the “Fairy Shrimp” group - - this group is typically represented by Brine Shrimp, a life form that is particularly well adapted to very saline, land-locked bodies of water.

One can imagine that some land-locked bodies of water became especially exposed to regularly parched cycles … with some of them permanently becoming completely dried out. Brine Shrimp have a body configured into the classic 3 sections of insects (head, thorax and abdomen), but they have 11 pair of swimming legs. [22 legs]

Creatures that wanted to move around on the dryer parts of the shore, would have benefited from reducing the length of its body, and develop a few sturdy legs instead of 11 pair. But other land-based arthropods, like centipedes and millipedes show the diversity of these kinds of adaptation.

The hexapod article includes this:

“Molecular analysis suggests that the hexapods diverged from their sister group, the Anostraca (fairy shrimps), at around the start of the Silurian period 440 million years ago - coinciding with the appearance of vascular plants on land.”

FN 29: Gaunt, M.W.; Miles, M.A. (1 May 2002). “An Insect Molecular Clock Dates the Origin of the Insects and Accords with Palaeontological and Biogeographic Landmarks”. Molecular Biology and Evolution. 19 (5): 748–761. ISSN 1537-1719. PMID 11961108. doi:10.1093/oxfordjournals.molbev.a004133."

ABSTRACT LINK & TEXT:

“Abstract
"A unified understanding of >390 Myr of insect evolution requires insight into their origin. Molecular clocks are widely applied for evolutionary dating, but clocks for the class Insecta have remained elusive.”

“We now define a robust nucleotide and amino acid mitochondrial molecular clock encompassing five insect orders, including the Blattaria (cockroaches), Orthoptera (crickets and locusts), Hemiptera (true bugs), Diptera, and Lepidoptera (butterflies and moths). Calibration of the clock using one of the earliest, most extensive fossil records for insects (the early ancestors of extant Blattaria) was congruent with all available insect fossils, with biogeographic history, with the Cambrian explosion, and with independent dating estimates from Lepidopteran families.”

“In addition, dates obtained from both nucleotide and amino acid clocks were congruent with each other. Of particular interest to vector biology is the early date of the emergence of triatomine bugs (99.8–93.5 MYA), coincident with the formation of the South American continent during the breakup of Gondwanaland.”

“More generally, we reveal the insects arising from a common ancestor with the Anostraca (fairy shrimps) at around the Silurian-Ordovician boundary (434.2–421.1 MYA) coinciding with the earliest plant megafossil.” [< vascular plants]

“We explore Tilyard’s theory proposing that the terrestrial transition of the aquatic arthropod ancestor to the insects is associated with a particular plant group (early vascular plants). The major output of the study is a comprehensive series of dates for deep-branching points within insect evolution that can act as calibration points for further dating studies within insect families and genera.”
[END]

The jump from 22 legs to 6 legs is an abrupt shift. A similar jump had to occur from some other marine arthropod (say, the horseshoe crab), which makes the jump from marine to terrestrial ecosytems - as spiders! [8 legs].

The jump to 6 legs appears to have been quite stable in that we don’t see a lengthy “biological debate” as life forms moved from 22 legs, to 20 legs, to 16 legs and so on. It appears to have been a relatively random jump (assuming we can use that term when God is the one making the decisions) to a number of legs (six) that appear to allow these creatures to do just about anything they want. Some legs are used to assist in hunting. Others for defense. Others became specialized for jumping. So once six legs appeared, there was relatively no pressure on insects to change leg counts yet again.


#146

I agree, to an extent But once this event occurs, and becomes past, He couldn’t change it. But God can’t change our free will, and once we chose to do something, it is done, He can’t change that. However God can change the future via that present. Example if I stab a man, God could heal the wound instantaneously as if it never happened. But He can’t change the fact that it did happen. But knowing it was going to happen, could have obviously prevented me from stabbing someone. But it wouldn’t be free will if He prevented us from doing the things we wanted to for every decision. It is difficult to understand predestination and free will.

But the point again, is once the past happens, it can’t be changed, and God might not have wanted to change it but it can’t change, it occurred, it happened, the time of happening occurred. Being that something happened, it couldn’t be instantaneous, there were multiple events, so some amount of time had to occur. How much time? It depends on what the person outside of time assigns to it.

I agree, I think it took longer too, 13.7 billion years…and 6 days.

I’m not sure I follow what you are saying? I am not speaking of a passage of time for Him. He said it took 6 days, He is speaking for me. He knows our frame of reference (how we measure days) and said it took 6 days. And science shows 13.7 billion years, so that is right too. He sped up time as we know it so that both can be correct.

I agree. Speed changes spacetime itself IN the thing that is speed up. But it can’t change the time of happening. If the atomic clock goes fast in a plane or spaceship, spacetime actually slows for that thing going that fast, but everything else time ticks like ‘normal’.

I agree, where does it look like I said contrary?

why is this not a problem currently, for a universe that is 13.7 billion years old? I am saying the same thing. Time for the ‘spaceship’ the universe is in, ticked like normal, so nothing is different than how you believe it to be. It is only different for God, who is ‘outside of the spaceship’ who saw it occur in 6 days.

@gbrooks9 thank you for posting that.


#147

We really can’t place limits on God. If He truly wanted to change a past event He could. Of course we would never know because the new past would be the past we know about.

The problem is bigger then just trying to squeeze 6 days into 13.7 billion years. The sequence of events is totally different. The easiest way to resolve the conflict is to take Genesis 1 as a creation story for which the truth is God created all things. How and when He did so is NOT part of the story.


(George Brooks) #148

@still_learning

For example, Genesis describes Birds as being created before land animals. This is no science book.


(Phil) #149

Regarding changing the past, Roger Olson has an excellent blog post on the subject that is thought provoking:


#150

That is still wrong. The atomic clock isn’t speeding up.[quote=“still_learning, post:146, topic:36495”]
why is this not a problem currently, for a universe that is 13.7 billion years old?
[/quote]

It isn’t a problem because the heat from those decaying isotopes is spread over 13.7 billion years so it has time to dissipate. If you cram all that heat into a very short time period then it will turn the Earth into a melted slag heap. The amount of potassium-40 in your own body would be enough to kill you if you cranked up the decay rate to the rates you need for your model.[quote=“still_learning, post:146, topic:36495”]
Time for the ‘spaceship’ the universe is in, ticked like normal, so nothing is different than how you believe it to be. It is only different for God, who is ‘outside of the spaceship’ who saw it occur in 6 days.
[/quote]

For that to work, God would need to be speeding through spacetime relative to everything in it.


#151

The problem with Roger’s blog is he views God as being like us. As in, “In other words, he could not change the past without being on a timeline with the past.” What would prevent God, who is not on a time line, from doing as He pleases? The only limits to God’s actions are those limited by His attributes.


(Phil) #152

I think that is why he referred to it as “musings” because we do not really know and cannot know. His observation is sort of interesting that we do not see any examples of God changing the past or of people praying to change the past in scripture. It may be along the lines of “Could God create a rock too heavy for him to move?” Perhaps changing the past is a nonsense proposition too.


#153

It would seem that the simplest question is “Could God inspire humans to write an allegorical creation story?”.


#154

Post deleted


#155

More like instant universe in an instance. So why say it took a day to do it when it didn’t?


#156

I am understanding this more.

Now why couldn’t you have said this on your first post? I completely missed that one, and that would put the final nail in that coffin of a theory of mine if that is true. Can any other scientist out here validate that sea and air creatures are dated to have been after land creatures?

I am not saying the clock itself isn’t speeding up, time is, but only within that ship that is traveling at a certain speed.

You still aren’t understanding my theory. Within the ‘time capsule’ that is our universe, time happened as you believe it to (or as scientists have dated it) to have happened. So this doesn’t’ invalidate my theory.
The only difference in time is the time capsule outside the universe, that one took 6 days. Like we have time on earth, and if you fly a plane around the earth, you have a different time on that plane. You had a time reference in the universe, and outside of the universe (which God is) there is a different time capsule that took 6 days.

Correct, God could have speed through spacetime to to make it take 6 days to create the universe if He wanted it to.

I agree, God is perfect, and has not need to change the past. But once something occurs, it has occurred. When Jesus says “it is finished” That can’t be undone, it is therefore in the past now.

The only reason I can think of to have this, is to parallel for us (since He created the universe for us). Which could be argued, as He created it for His glory, but everything in it, the precise knife edge improbabilities to sustain our lives is the universe created for us. And God wanted us to have a 7 day calendar, knowing that we need this for our benefit. And what better way to put importance on this 7 day calendar then to do it yourself and parallel us, whom He made in His image?

I’m not saying this guarantees this is what God did and why, but it is logical (outside of the fact that it is provable or possible) to give reasoning as to why God went through the trouble of making it a literal 7 earth days.