IMO, one or both of us doesn’t know what cessationism is.
Must be you. This is a common term and I’m using it correct.
Since you’re the knowledgeable one, enlighten me, please.
- I know what the nine “Fruit of the Holy Spirit” are:
- Love
- Joy
- Peace
- Patience
- Kindness
- Goodness
- Faithfulness
- Gentleness
- Self-control
- You obviously aren’t suggesting that they have ceased, right?
- The other possibilities that I can think of are the seven “Gifts of the Holy Spirit” which are:
- Wisdom
- Understanding
- Fortitude (Courage/Endurance)
- Knowledge
- Piety
- Fear of the Lord (Awe)
- Or the miraculous Gifts that John Calvin called “seals” and had in mind when he first proposed the idea of cessationism:
- Speaking in tongues
- Prophecy
- Healing
- So I had to look “cessationism” up in Wikipedia and this is what I found:
- Source: Cessationism versus continuationism
- " Cessationism is, generally speaking, a doctrine of Reformed Christianity. Prior to the Protestant Reformation, there was no such explicit doctrine,…"
- "Although the original formulation of cessationism arose in response to claims of healing and miracles in the Catholic Church, cessationists now divide into four viewpoints based on their views about the possibility of miracles among Christians today. These are:
- Full cessationists believe that all miracles have ceased, along with any miraculous gifts.
- Classical cessationists assert that the miraculous gifts such as prophecy, healing, and speaking in tongues ceased with the apostles. However, they do believe that God occasionally works in supernatural ways today.
- Consistent cessationists believe that not only were the miraculous gifts only for the establishment of the first-century church, but the need for apostles and prophets also ceased.
- Concentric cessationists believe that the miraculous gifts have indeed ceased in the mainstream church and evangelized areas, but may appear in unreached areas as an aid to spreading the Gospel."
- I haven’t found anybody who claims to be a “biblical cessationist”; so, congratulations! You appear to be the first and only person to use that term.
- So I wonder: Are you a biblical (a) Full Cessationist, (b) Classical Cessationist, (c) Consistent Cessationist, or (d) Concentric Cessationist?
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That explains though that you’re not familiar with cessationism. I’ve never met a cessationist that believes that things like love and ect….have ceased. But it’s a common counter argument people just bring up sometimes. But has nothing to do with cessationism.
Biblical cessstionism means recognizing that the Bible teaches that the spiritual powers given through the laying on of the apostles hands have ceased along with the completion of their writings to mankind. It’s not based on solely anecdotal experiences of finding no one able to preform them.
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The fruit of the Spirit are different from the “charismatic gifts” cessationists believe are not given today. Those would be gifts like prophesy, words of knowledge, speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, and healing. @SkovandOfMitaze is using the term in normal way.
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“The Bible teaches that the spiritual powers given through the laying on of the apostle’s hands have ceased”???
Where’s the scripture that supports the claim that the bible teaches that the laying on of apostle’s hands bestows “spiritual powers” to begin with? I don’t think I’ve ever hear that before. Where are you getting that stuff?
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People. Here is an article that lists the Bible verses people get this interpretation from.
Neat! I rank the BLB right up there with Biblehub: for their Greek and Hebrew offerings, but NOT for their commentaries.
The article that you refer was written by Don Stewart. Don’t know him? Neither did I until I started reading Don Stewart
- Don Stewart (born Donald Lee Stewart on October 25, 1939, in Prescott, Arizona is a Pentecostal minister and purported faith healer. He is a televangelist who hosts Power and Mercy on Black Entertainment Television, The Word Network, and other television channels.
Did you read the article? @SkovandOfMitaze ought to.
I skimmed it. I’m not endorsing his views, I was offering it as proof that the population of people who believe gifts were imparted with the laying on of hands (as @SkovandOfMitaze was describing) is not zero.
I have not read it but will look at it. Having been a cessationist for well ofer a decade though I’ve read tons of counter arguments through blogs, books and in discussions with people. But I’ll try to read it tonight.
I dissent.
What @SkovandOfMitaze said was:
Since you haven’t done more than “skim” the article, I don’t expect you to read it thoroughly now and show me precisely where the article says that the Bible teaches that (a) the spiritual powers given through the laying on of the apostle’s hands have ceased and (b) along with the completion of their writings (i.e. presumably, the writings of the apostles. So, until somebody proves the popuation of people who believe what @SkovandOfMitaze said is more than zero, I say “It’s zero”. SkovandOfMitaze is free to prove me wrong, but I doubt he will.
What you describe as “the population of people who believe gifts were imparted with the laying on of hands” is not what SkovandOf Mitaze said and is an entirely different thing.
Because you may not have read the P.S. that I added to my earlier post to you, I’ll share it again here.
I think it would be meet, right, and proper to familiarize one’s self with a person’s claims before defending them.
Having been a covenanted member of St. John the Baptist Catholic Charismatic Renewal Community in the Roman Catholic Diocese of San Francisco for three years and having “spoken in tongues” and witnessed prophecy, speaking in tongues, and interpretation of tongues and attended Healing Services led by Catholic Priests, I believe that I am in a position to tell you simply: you have been misinformed.
Don’t bother reading the article, it doesn’t support your claim.
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You right. I don’t care enough to prove something that I feel has already been proven. The link already covers it. It’s not new. It’s not something has just popped into existence since Luther like wiki says. You have a problem for some unknown reason because i I said biblical in front of it. Then pretend the ■■■■ word is not there. You’ve never even heard of this entire movement with tons and tons and tons of peole across dozens of denominations. But no I’m not taking the hour or two time to go through why I believe what I believe as some random sub thread comment. It’s a tangent of my post. Someone either understands it or not. It’s not the main focus and I’m not getting side tracked on it. My question is easy. I went into details beyond the question to paint a clearer picture of it. That’s it. It does not require me to debate it or especially debate the existence of it. Today is the first day you heard of it.
Spend a bit looking at it , see the communities and I don’t have to pretend to care enough to prove it exists.
Or we can try it this. If you know someone who can speak in tongues or instantly heal someone by touching them or raise yo the dead with their shadow and blah blah send them to ST Jude hospital because there are dozens of cancer kids that need this magical instant healing. Just like the apostles did in the stories. I know some handicapped vets that we can visit and get the en up and walking brand new. If not, and no one ever can, then I say they have even more to prove.
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That’s what I suspected and your claim remains unproven.
You’re confused. You think I have a problem, you don’t know what it is or why I have it, but you think it’s all about your use of the word “biblical”, and (a) I don’t have a problem. If you think I’m going to do anything more than laugh over your confusion, you’re wrong…again.
:
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Then we are at an agreement in our own way. You think I’m confused and are laughing and I think your lost in the sauce ofer a new idea and Im going back to watching Brand New Cherry Flavor.
Besides Christy, to whom you were replying?
If a writer means something, and the diction is such that a general English reader understands what was meant, accurate communication has taken place. You can take my word that I correctly ascertained what was said and meant.
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No, you did not.
@SkovandOfMitaze mentioned the existence of cessationists, people who believe certain charismatic gifts were imparted by the apostles or were given only for the time of the early church and that those gifts have ceased and are not given by the Spirit today. This is a real group that includes many Evangelicals. I am not interested in explaining or defending why they think certain gifts are not given today, despite plenty of experiential evidence to the contrary. I am not a cessationist, but I know what the word means and I know people who are cessationists. You were mistaken to imply that no people are cessationists and that @SkovandOfMitaze was using the word in some atypical way. That is all I have to say on the matter.
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For the record,
- I never said or implied that “no people are cessationists.” What I said was: "So, until somebody proves the popuation of people who believe what @SkovandOfMitaze said is more than zero, I say “It’s zero”.
- I never said SkovOfMitaze was using the word “cessationism” in some atypical way. What I said was that: Skov’s statement that “the Bible teaches that the spiritual powers given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands have ceased” is false. The Bible teaches no such thing.
- That is all I have to say on the matter.
Most dispensalist Baptists, confessional reformed and prebysterian, and parts of Anglican communium are cessationists. This is a simple google search and I have been to churches of these denominations and a non-zero amount of them follow cessationist teachings. You can find their denominational teachings (or for more autonomous groupings, dig a little deeper). This has been clearly understood for over 50 years. The onus is on you to provide the idea that that population is zero.
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