I think it’s naive to assume that science was THE MAIN THING on people’s deconstruction trajectory. People who grow up YEC also tend to grow up with a lot of other fundamentalist baggage. The exvangelical pipeline is full of people who are disillusioned with the expression of Christianity they have been immersed in on multiple levels. They have often been spiritually, emotionally, or sexually abused by church people. They are disillusioned about the response not just to science but to race, gender, and politics. They are seeing hypocrisy and failure everywhere they look. Let’s not blame “EC” for people’s deconversions, when the damage to their soul is multi-faceted and deep.
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My interest in whether or not YEC views are the most corrosive toward faith is “academic”, at least until I come up with a better word for describing my interest.
- Their views (i.e. the views of YEC-cers) do not corrode my faith, and would not have, even when I was a teenager living in my Missouri Synod-Lutheran Preacher’s house.
- And then, that was certainly not a YEC household.
- Also, I was not born into the family; I was brought into it, voluntarily, at the age of 12; and I left to join the Navy when I was 18 (not to escape my family, but to follow friends who had joined a few months before me.)
- And, contrary to the imagination of a couple of silly people who know nothing about me, I haven’t been a regular member of a religious group or church congregation since about 1976. I haven’t been to a church since the memorial service following my father’s death in 2015. And unlike my three brothers, on-line church services don’t do anything for me.
- Is my faith now “corroded”? Only someone who doesn’t know me might think so. Personally, I know it’s stronger than it’s ever been in my life. That’s because of the “gratitude” that I have: for what I have received in life and for what I have now.
- There was, however, a brief period (roughly 3 months) when I was 8 years old, that I spent as a “fattening up” project in a Southern Baptist preacher’s home. Sundays and Wednesday Evenings in church, family prayers on our knees every evening before bed; and informal behavioral training that I’m sure would have sucked the life out of me and motivated an attempt to escape. But fortunately, as I said, that only lasted about three months, and once back home, I recovered quickly.
- Back, when I was a member of a Catholic Charismatic Renewal Community in San Francisco, roughly around 1975, one of my boon companions shared this with me: "Free men do not rebel." As far as I know, my friend came up with it “on the spot” during our conversation. I believed it was true then and will be true forever.
- So, if you agree that free persons do not rebel, do you think a free YEC’s views could corrode his or her views? I think not, and can’t imagine how they could. On the other hand, I do believe–even if the YEC swears it’ll never happen–that a free YEC’s views (i.e. theology) can change, and that their faith can grow.
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YEC lays this framework, as many within it would like, usually of a binary system that is difficult to break from. Some times people need more time and grace to deconstruct their baggage, but the church often seems impatient for the congregants to get it right. Instead of an atmosphere of safe questioning where we trust God is faithful while we try to figure things out and learn at different paces, faith is painted more as an urgent need to just believe and obey rules.
It’s also interesting that common rhetoric in conservative America has been looking to the past when apparently we were largely a Christian nation with all these Judeo Christian values. When I was younger, a lot of people did go to church. BUT they were just nominal Christians, or there was something wrong with what they believed and just nobody was really getting it right except our church. So maybe this progression from YEC to EC to atheism is one pattern that people who are increasingly being honest with themselves are taking. Because if they were practicing those Christian values, we’d (churches I’ve been part of and I) find something wrong with their faith anyway.
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I’m basing it off of what I hear. It’s always stems back to science answering all the questions they have and the ones it does not has no need for Christ to fill it. I’ve yet to met someone who left YEC and became EC leave the faith because of gender issues since the majority of those who seem to fall into EC accepts the general gender and social issues. It’s that they simply don’t see God as anything other than a metaphor anymore.
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I think the imposition of binaries is a really important feature leading to this disaster.
And this is part of that (false) binary assumption. Particularly for highly analytical thinkers, who process the world through data in ways I cannot, being taught a faith that is built on fake “scientific” assumptions is a recipe for disaster. Because the pseudoscience, which was treated as proof of the faith, is demonstrably false, the faith itself must be as well.
What is more, while YEC talks about some accounts of miracles, as if they are open to scientific scrutiny (for example, Jonah’s whale/fish and Job’s monsters (Sorry, Martin. I’m not done with these texts yet.)) arguing about taxonomy and other nonsense, while switching on other topics such as creation. The youthful analytical thinker will confidently clutch to his/her memorized lists and canned arguments (with much approval from his/her well-wishers) misled into believing these are proofs, but eventually, if they keep analyzing, this kind of bait and switch will be challenged enough to be exposed.
In the end, what is this person left with, except doubt or disbelief?
As frustrated as I have become with fundamentalism, at least it’s satisfied without explanation (God said it; I believe it; that settles it.). It’s not great, but there IS a possiblity of discussion — slowly over long periods of time. But when you add to this the belief that science DOES prove the Biblical texts and gives you support for what you believe, that lie, if dismantled, leaves a person empty-handed.
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Just to be clear I’m not talking about someone who is angry at God, hurt by the church or anything dramatic. Just people that begin at YEC and then became open to the Bible being non literal and then beginning to recognize even the stories written in a way that appears to be read literally but is full of hyperbolic speech that eventually leads them to things like heavy natural theology where they no longer believe that the miracles are real, that they virgin birth was real or that the resurrection was real. The Bible slowly goes from being real to less real and it eventually becomes essentially a giant metaphor devoid of anything supernatural. They are in a community of mostly people who accept same sex, reject the modern purity movement, are anti slavery and ect…. They enjoy church and have many church friends just no longer believes in the supernatural at all and thinks it’s all metaphorical and philosophical and decided that there is really no reason to believe it and so ofer years they begin to externally voice they just don’t believe it and eventually end up in atheism. Not angry atheism that hates Christianity. Just the belief that there is just simply nothing literal in the entire Bible including an actual god.
Since I’m in a similar boat and have these discussions with people it comes up and especially on Facebook and other random threads. There are millions and millions of people with similar ideas about Christianity as we find in BioLogos and other similar groups. For me personally I have zero scientific reason to believe in God. I have seen prayer answered for sure very few times in my life in a way I just don’t think it’s coincidence. None of it necessarily supernaturally charged up. No magical healings, resurrections and so on which is fine because I’m a biblical cessationist and so I don’t expect it. But it does mean I also don’t have the supernatural or miraculous things to lean on. Christians in general , even in here , are no better or worse than a decent person from any other faith or non faith. There is nothing historical to look back on to say this was for sure a god involvement here. I choose to believe in God really because of 2 events in my life that just seemed to coincidental to have just happened and neither one again is necessarily supernatural and based off of other very unlikely to be coincidental events I hear from others could just have simply been something extremely unlikely but not impossible and can’t be verified as carried out by a god.
Now I’m not particularly struggling with my belief in God becsuse as mentioned I just simply believe he’s real despite having no real reason to outside of those two events. But despite that, the faith is just there. I can’t really imagine ever not believing in God becsuse I don’t expect anything from him. I don’t think he’s not involved in his creation just that he’s not not involved with it in a crazy supernatural way.
But I have meet a increasingly growing number of people , more in the last two years than ever in my whole life who over the span of 5–10 years have slowly moved into atheism because the Bible slowly just became one giant non literal metaphor.
So that’s why I asked my question. Within natural theology where so much is turned from the supernatural into a metaphor what are the ways y’all encourage disciples 5-10 years in to not just move into atheism.
That looks like a sentence fragment to me… care to finish that thought?
They are not entirely to blame when their church and friends have all equated Christianity with YEC…
I would rather just rephrase it. I’m doing most posting on my phone now as my demon possessed laptop has turned against me. So now in addition to garden variety typos and unwelcome spell check corrections I have lapses caused by slow speed texting. How about I put it this way:
In such an environment it is impossible to have a calm discussion on the positive aspects of faith or even just why it had been selected for so heavily for so long.
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A fascinating read which did clear up some confusion about who this fellow might be. Appreciate you sharing the back story.
I’m especially surprised to learn you have not sought out a congregation and seem not to desire one. I can certainly relate. But while I don’t describe myself as any kind of Christian I’m pretty sure (but please do correct me if wrong) you do claim that descriptor. But I do have very strong faith in something greater than my own opinion which informs all my opinions - even my opinion of how best to describe its place in the world and how that connects to me. I’ve concluded that the connection between Christian belief and my own just is easier to see from my side of the divide. So I count Christians as Allie’s and brothers regardless. But I have any wish to congregate even though I obviously enjoy conversing, especially with others who recognize their own insufficiency and dependence on something greater. Plus I value my solitude a bit more even than these conversations.
Certainly YEC belief doesn’t corrode my faith but it does leave me dumbfounded and doubtful that I can learn much by way of conversation with such. Just too little common ground. But I don’t dismiss its value as a means of feeling connected to what is greater. But what a price they pay in terms of fitting their views with the general contemporary culture.
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My wife is asocial, especially now that she’s retired and her parents and my parents are dead. I’m waiting for the Holy Spirit to lead me somewhere. Until IT does, I accept what it has to offer where I am.
I kinda like my father’s words for my kind: a defective saint. But, theologically, yes, I’m Christian and a firm believer in the Incarnation, Transfiguration, Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus of Nazareth, although I am still skeptical of his abiogenetic conception.
I can understand. Some mainstream scientists leave me feeling the same way.
Indubitably. But as long as they can do it without becoming “members” of the militant ex-Christian crowd, more power to them.
A bit more to say, but got a Dentist appointment to get to.
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Predominantly, based on Barna’s research - I would add a majority hold therapeutic deism. That means that don’t read their bibles and don’t really understand the gospel. OT even the NT.
So when challenged there is no foundation.
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It seems like for many their Christianity is basically rituals and belief statements and they don’t have any actual encounters with God to fall back on when their rituals become empty and their belief statements fall short.
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This does indeed sound again like the “disillusioned fundamentalist” syndrome. It’s important to realise that the different books of the Bible have different sources and need interpreting in the light of their contexts. Which is not to deny their inspiration. God has spoken to us at many times and in various ways (Hebrews 1:1)
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My only issue is that I’m not a fundamentalistic person. The people I’ve encountered are not either. They are people who essentially says if there is no proof then why should they remain there. If there is no evidence of fine tuning, and everything extraordinary in the Bible is almost always just hyperbolic of metaphorical, then why remain. For some Jesus is the byproduct of rape and angels or demons are just metaphors. Some of the natural theology that develops seems to erase all supernatural aspects and then science can essentially answer all the questions for them.
First, I’m a physicist and can say that the evidence for fine tuning is quite strong. The alternative would be a multiverse - but that is an extraordinary hypothesis for which there is no evidence. In fact the cosmologist Gia Dvali considers that the basic multiverse hypothesis is now excluded. The trouble with the line of argument you state is that it is always possible to doubt, and there is usually an ambiguity between wanting “evidence” and wanting “proof”. It is rarely possible to prove anything outside pure mathematics. You could try reading the book “Am I just my brain?” by Sharon Dirckx. Or my own book “Signposts to God”. Or try the many things William Lane Craig has written. But at least consider the arguments for both sides.
I will look for the books. It would be relieving to have some kind of evidence beyond God of the Gaps and Unlikely Coincidences. But ultimately my faith does not depend on evidence of any kind. Which is good for me because that’s where I am.
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It’s not a matter… of physics. It’s a matter of logic. The infinite, eternal multiverse is an absolute certainty. And reality self tunes. There is no meaning to order.
It’s a matter… of declaration. The infinite, eternal multiverse is an absolute certainty… by words of mouth. There is meaning in the personhood of God, however.
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