Angels and Ezekiel 1

Faith & Science Conversation
,
1

Angels were created beings with a purpose or function. They may have governed over aspects of creation. In Job 38+, God describes things God does. God is a King. He may have had Angels who governed over certain things described in Job 38+. A King may have had retainers and councilors.

The last few years, the US Government has released UFO files. Angels are other dimensional entities. Some of the UFO sightings may have been angels like Daniel and the Prince of Persia. (Daniel 10)

In Ezekiel 1, the angels with the four faces may imply that certain aspects of creation are multi-faceted. There are many different types of love in Greek language. Are there different aspects of love? Eros and Agape.

Pride is tied to or the cause of a lot of sin. Pride as in self-worth may be a good thing, keeping someone from being a doormat. Multifaceted.

Sometimes to win, you need to lose. Eternal life is found by hating your life in this world.

Satan, as an Angel, he was a created being with a purpose or function. Satan was an Accuser in Job 1. Satan was an Accuser in Revelation 12.

  • God Almighty is a jealous God.
  • God tests the heart.

Arch Angel Michael has been known as mankind’s advocate. Satan was an Accuser. God is a Judge. We have a courtroom. Satan had some function of testing men’s hearts and judgement of sin.

Where does someone find information about Angels? There is a Tradition of Revelation. Theology is Revelation. Christians should be of “One Mind.” It is something a group of mature Christians should be able to discuss and pray about, and come to census.

2

Unfortunately, we as humans want to know more that perhaps is possible, and we fill in the blanks with imagination. It gets complicated. So much of our common folk religion beliefs about angels come more from Milton and Paradise Lost than the Bible. That and non-canonical sources like the Book of Enoch. An angel is a messenger from God, and in the Old Testament, the line gets blurry as to an event taking place with an angel or God himself, ie the wrestling match Jacob had. We tend to see Angels as physical beings, as that is how we relate, but I wonder if beyond the veil, the spiritual is the greater reality.

2 Likes
3

I experience the Spiritual, and may be able to give some context.

The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. (Luke 1:19)

There are multiple ways someone may experience God. Isaac means “Laughter.” God promised Abraham a son. God did not say when. Abraham and Sarah, in their old age, when they finally had a healthy baby boy, they laughed. They were experiencing God, experiencing prophecy fulfilled.

Given someone was in God’s presence, like he was in God’s courtroom, before God as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and he had sin in his heart or on his soul, he may have been thrown to the ground, and in a lot of pain experiencing God’s anger…or he died. The High Priest in the Temple of God, he would crawl into The Holy of Holies once a year, during Yom Kippur. If he came into God’s presence with sin on his heart, or in an unclean state, he may have died.

Gabriel stands in the presence of God. This implies “No Sin.”

I am aware of a lot of interesting things. We may be able to discuss them.

4

I’ll be away or busy the next couple days. Before I go, what are fallen angels, and how are they different than demons?

Heaven is closeness or oneness with God. A fallen angel was separate.

Angels have functions. Given God had a baseball team, and he kicked out some players, there may be gaps in Left Field and First Base. Someone has to scoot over and cover extra territory.

A fallen angel may have still been working in his function he was created for. He just couldn’t perform certain higher functions. Belial has been a named entity in Christian History. Belial is mentioned in the “Community” of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Belial would be a different entity than Satan, a Fallen Angel, who was known as Accuser. Belial may be considered “A Satan.” “A Satan” was some sort of ruler in the principalities outside of God like "The Prince of Persia. (Daniel 10)

Belial is Worthless. As an Angel, he may have had something to do with Worth and unWorth. As a fallen Angel, he cannot perform his higher function. Worth is found in The Lord Jesus Christ. Common Sense comes from God.

A fallen angel may have lead men into sin. Men in sin may have ended up with demons. Demons are associated with particular sins.

5

The NT mentions of fallen angels appear to be based on the Book of Enoch. Have you read this non-canonical text?

6

Well put. And even just sticking with canonical texts, we get a variety of pictures of angels. Some encounters are so awesome that the first command has to be “fear not!”. Other encounters so ‘mundane’ that it is apparently possible people could be “entertaining angels unaware.” Then in Revelation there seems to be “an angel” associated with each church. Or Jesus speaks of children as having “an angel beholding the face of God”. Not a lot of reason there for thinking angels are always and only in one sort of form. So perhaps the same should be said of demons?

7

The word ‘angelos’ means a messenger. A messenger represents the sender. Some ‘angelos’ may simply be representatives or messengers of churches (or some other sender), instead of being heavenly beings. This alternative interpretation would fit to what Revelation 1-3 tells. Maybe heavenly beings, maybe humans.

1 Like
8

Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible: Second extensively revised edition

  • “The Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible is the single major work of reference on the gods, angels, demons, spirits and semi-divine heroes whose names occur in the biblical books. First published in 1995 and chosen by “Choice” as Best Reference Work of 1996, an extensively revised edition was published in 1998. Arranged in the order of the Latin alphabet, the more than four-hundred names are those found in the books of the Hebrew and the Greek Bible, Old and New Testament, including the Apocrypha. There are entries on divine names recognized as such by the biblical authors; divine names in theophoric toponyms and anthroponyms; secular terms which occur as divine names in neighbouring civilizations, conjectural divine names, at times based on textual emendation, proposed by modern scholarship; and humans who acquired a semi-divine status in tradition. A typical entry contains a discussion of the pertinent name, its meaning, the religio-historical background, relevant biblical passages and an up-to-date bibliography. Extensive indices and cross-references provide easy access to the rich information of the dictionary. The Dictionary of Deities and Demons is the fruit of a common effort of a group of more than a hundred international scholars from a variety of traditions.”
1 Like
9

Demons: What the Bible Really Says About the Powers of Darkness

See all formats and editions

The truth about demons is far stranger - and even more fascinating - than what’s commonly believed.

Are demons real? Are they red creatures with goatees holding pitchforks and sitting on people’s shoulders while whispering bad things? Did a third of the angels really rebel with Satan? Are demons and “principalities and powers” just terms for the same entities, or are they different members of the kingdom of darkness? Is the world a chaotic mess because of what happened in Eden, or is there more to the story of evil?

What people believed about evil spiritual forces in ancient biblical times is often very different than what people have been led to believe about them today. And this ancient worldview is missing from most attempts to treat the topic.

In Demons, Michael Heiser debunks popular presuppositions about the very real powers of darkness. Rather than traditions, stories, speculations, or myths, Demons is grounded in what ancient people of both the Old and New Testament eras believed about evil spiritual forces and in what the Bible actually says. You’ll come away with a sound, biblical understanding of demons, supernatural rebellion, evil spirits, and spiritual warfare."

1 Like
10

Angels: What the Bible Really Says about God’s Heavenly Host

  • " What does the Bible really tell us about the heavenly host?

Everyone knows that angels have wings, usually carry harps, and that each of us has our own personal guardian angel, right? We all have some preconceptions about angels from movies, television shows, and other media, but you might be surprised to know that a lot of those notions aren’t based on anything from the Bible.

In Angels, Dr. Michael Heiser reveals what the Bible really says about God’s supernatural servants, illuminated by the wider context of the ancient Near Eastern world. Deepen your understanding of the loyal members of God’s heavenly host and find answers to questions like:

● What exactly are angels and what are they able to do?
● Who is the angel of Yahweh?
● Can fallen angels be redeemed?
● What are “tongues of angels”?
● Do Christians become angels when they die?

1 Like
11

I see angels as a logical first step in God’s creation of others for a relationship, where God simply created other spirits like Himself (but more limited). It is the straight-forward approach, but the results are beings who are no more than what God created them to be. As products of design they have much in common with computers, just doing what they were made to do - servants/tools in essence rather than children – existing for the ends/purpose according to which they were made. At best it is only a poor imitation of free will.

To create children and a greater freedom of will required something far more elaborate – the creation of a whole universe operating by its own rules – complex enough to give rise to self-organizing phenomena and the process of life. So we are a product not of design but growth, learning, and our own choices – existing as ends in ourselves. This is the difference between servants/tools and children.

After we blamed one angel for our own mistake, God assigned this angel to be our adversary (Satan). It is a logical consequence, for power and responsibility go hand in hand. Giving this being the blame means giving it power over us.

12

I really like how you focus on angels having specific functions, but in my view, our modern imagination turns these figures into sci-fi or otherworldly entities when the text is actually trying to show us something much closer to home.

If we look at the actual word meanings used by the biblical writers, the word for messenger—mal’ak in Hebrew and angelos in Greek—simply describes an agent carrying out a specific job or delivering a message. It doesn’t mean a magical being with wings. In fact, throughout Scripture, these messengers are very often ordinary human beings. Even when we read about the spectacular encounters in Daniel 10, the language stays remarkably grounded in human history.

The text mentions that the messenger was blocked by the “prince of the kingdom of Persia” until Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help him. A prince of Persia is a literal human leader governing a physical territory. If the person opposing the message was a human political ruler, it makes the most sense that Michael—as a fellow chief prince—was also a human leader acting within that exact same earthly, historical ecosystem.

When we cross over into the symbolic language of Revelation 12, this same human-scale framework carries through. The text speaks of Michael and his messengers fighting against the dragon. The name Michael itself means “Who is like God?”—it’s a question that stands as the ultimate marker of monotheism.

Rather than a war in space with flying creatures, Revelation is using highly vivid, compressed symbols to describe a massive clash between human systems of governance right here on Earth. The “dragon” represents the old, tyrannical, empire-scale systems that rule by raw, predatory force (the law of the jungle). Michael and his messengers represent the human leaders, prophets, and thinkers standing up for God’s path of justice, cooperation, and love. When the text says the dragon is “cast down,” it simply means that those old, predatory ways of ruling are losing their authority and being brought low as human society matures.

I think that is a really profound connection. If we follow the word meanings, Gabriel translates to “Strong Man of God” or “Mighty Man of God.” If a messenger stands completely in the presence of God, then your conclusion that it implies “no sin” is spot on.

When a human agent is acting entirely within the will of God, they aren’t operating out of their lower, fear-driven nature. They have moved past the primal survival instincts that lead to selfishness, territorialism, and rebellion. In that moment of alignment, the “Strong Man” is completely reflecting the character of the Creator. Standing in that presence means the lower, animalistic noise of the flesh has been completely silenced—which is exactly what it means to be without sin. It shows that true holiness is found when our human leadership and actions perfectly match up with God’s design.

Your description of the courtroom and the idea of “separation” hits on exactly what I’ve been studying. When a human operates out of pure, frantic survival instinct—driven by raw fear, panic, or territorial dominance—they fall away from the path God has designed for us. In the Old Testament, the word meanings link these spiritual struggles directly to the physical world. For example, sa’ir is translated as a goat-demon, but it literally means “hairy” or “bristly” with fear. It represents that baseline state of animal panic.

This also helps clear up what fallen angels are versus demons, because our modern traditions tend to lump them together.

If an angel is simply a messenger or an agent of authority, a “fallen angel” is a human leader, teacher, or institution that has utterly fallen away from its high spiritual calling. They still hold influence and power, but they have regressed to operating under the law of the jungle—seeking dominance, fear, and control instead of justice and love.

Demons (daimonia), on the other hand, are better understood as those blind, primal, fear-driven forces and traits themselves. They are the psychological and behavioral baggage from our primitive animal past—things like frantic panic, paranoia, and raw territorial aggression that completely break down human sanity and cooperation. When the text talks about subduing or casting out these forces, it’s talking about mastering our lower natures.

When we let our primitive animal baggage override our spiritual calling, we slide backward into the law of the jungle. That behavioral regression is what causes us to become “separate” from God’s perfect order. The “accuser” or “adversary” functions like a natural law within the system: if you step outside of the cooperative path of love and alignment, your own lower nature becomes the judge that brings you down into pain and ruin.

True authority in Jesus isn’t about magical formulas. Abiding in Christ means our spiritual nature is learning to tame and subdue those lower, fear-driven animal instincts in our daily lives, bringing our individual human choices right back into harmony with God’s design.

I’d love to know your thoughts on looking at Michael, Gabriel, and the messengers through that human, historical lens!

13

I have read the Book of Enoch.

There is “A something” to the Book of Enoch. The Jews were persecuted, and people worked to destroy their texts. A lot of people today take the printing press and the internet for granted. The Book of Enoch looks incomplete or “repaired” wrong. Someone should be careful with it. The Book of Jasher is a named text in the Bible. What we have currently reads more like Jewish Folk Tales. It may be that it had been destroyed, and someone rewrote it from memory…and they were off, that is, not in The Spirit of God.

Nothing New happens under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11)

God threw Satan out of heaven. There may have been other instances of God throwing angels out of heaven. Time goes in a circle.

14

@graft2vine You started off by mentioning “Our Modern Imagination.” You continued with your modern humanizing interpretation.

There is a Conceptual Understanding to the Bible. Given someone grasps a concept, a lot of understanding falls into place. The understanding you articulated, doesn’t 100% fit with Ezekiel 1, and some other scripture. Given we are getting it right, we may be flush. Flush with all scripture. Flush like in construction. Everything fits together like a piece to a puzzle.

In a Spiritual Understanding of the Bible, the Spiritual is layered like layers in the Atmospheric or layers in a Divine Comedy. On the ground layer, we have something physical. We have things we sense are material. As we go up layers, we have allegories. Given you go up in the atmosphere like climbing a mountain, you may not have sensed the difference right away, but you may end up tired more easily. There is a difference. It is just harder to see or articulate.

Where you allude that Angels are “Only Messengers,” that is wrong. Angels have functions.

  • How you have fallen from heaven,
    morning star, son of the dawn!
    You have been cast down to the earth,
    you who once laid low the nations! (Isaiah 14:12)

  • “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” (Revelations 22:16)

  • To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[b]—just as I have received authority from my Father. 28 I will also give that one the morning star. (Revelations 2:26-28)

Lucifer or The Morning Star is a title or function. A warrior in Ancient Times or a knight in the Middle Ages, he may have picked up titles. He was “Defender of the North.” “The Red.” “The Kings Cup Bearer.” “Terror of ______.” In a similar way, angels may have gained titles or names. Lucifer is a title or function.

Satan was Lucifer. He was thrown from heaven. Jesus became The Morning Star. He who does Jesus’ bidding to the end, and is victorious, he will be given the morning star. The Morning Star appears to have some function towards the judgement of Nations. Satan, he was like mankind’s jealous half brother, looking to get man in trouble with God. Jesus loves you.

If someone were to read Isaiah 14, and say that it was about a Babylonian King…it isn’t wrong on a “Ground Level.” There is a spiritual understanding or layers of understanding. To discard the spiritual understanding is wrong. Multiple things may be right at the same time.

15

What is the context of “Does my will to the end?” (Revelations 2:26-28)

The Lord is a Shepherd. (Psalms 23) We read the New Testament from an Old Testament understanding. The Prophets of the Bible, God spoke THROUGH. God has a character. God has a tone. God uses particular allegories. Given a Prophet “Thus Saith The Lord,” it was either God or not God. He was either a prophet or a false prophet. He was in darkness or The Light of the Lord. (Ephesians 5:8) He was right or wrong. It is black and white.

God doesn’t lie. God is love. God’s love is fatherly. God has good plans. God created a man and knows if he likes ice cream and hates green beans.

Jesus Christ, he did the Will of The Father unto death. The Father and Jesus Christ the Son, are of “one mind,” and one will. Christians should be of “One Mind.” (Philippians 2:2) The only way to the father is through the son. (John 14:6)

The Lord is a shepherd. The context of Revelations 2:26-28, was someone doing Jesus’ will, and possibly being used to pick fights, and he was victorious.

16

Try written by different authors in different time periods. Which is really not that uncommon in Hebrew Bible texts.

Given the original text has been lost and the title was just reused.

1 Like
17

I completely agree with you that multiple things can be true at the same time and that the Bible has beautiful layers of understanding. Looking at scripture like a puzzle where everything fits together “flush” is exactly how we get to the core of what the writers were trying to convey.

You brought up a fantastic point with Ezekiel 1, and I think looking at how that experience happened actually clarifies the ground level we are talking about.

If we look closely at the text, Ezekiel explicitly states that he was among the exiles by the Kebar River when the heavens were opened and he saw visions of God. This detail is crucial: it was an internal, spiritual vision given directly to the prophet. If it had been a literal, physical object or a fleet of physical sci-fi craft appearing in the sky, all the other exiles standing right next to him by the river would have seen it too! Instead, it was an intense, highly symbolic mental revelation meant to communicate deep spiritual realities to Ezekiel alone.

When we look at the breathtaking symbols in that vision—the four living creatures with the faces of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle—it perfectly mirrors the functions of leadership, protection, and information. Rather than describing bizarre, multi-dimensional alien hardware, the vision uses vivid imagery to show how God’s ultimate governance and purposes operate through creation.

Where we might see things slightly differently is how our modern traditions have grouped some of these symbolic titles together—specifically the idea that Satan was Lucifer.

If we look at the actual words used in the original texts, “Lucifer” isn’t a proper name at all. It’s a Latin word that translated the Hebrew term helel, which literally means the “shining one” or the “morning star.” In Isaiah 14, the text explicitly addresses this “morning star” as the King of Babylon. On that historical layer, it’s a poetic way of describing a human ruler who thought he was high and mighty like a star in the heavens, but was ultimately brought down to the dirt.

The name Satan, on the other hand, comes from a completely different Hebrew root word meaning “adversary” or “accuser.”

When we lump Satan and Lucifer together as the exact same literal cosmic being, we actually miss the deeper, functional layer you mentioned. As you pointed out, Jesus calls himself the bright Morning Star in Revelation 22:16.

In the physical world, the morning star (the planet Venus) isn’t actually a star at all—it’s simply the brightest light in the dawn sky that appears right before the sun rises. It functions as a natural trailblazer, a herald bringing in a completely new day.

The human king of Babylon tried to be that global trailblazer through tyranny, raw pride, and laying low the nations, and he failed miserably. Jesus became the ultimate, true Morning Star by doing the exact opposite—bringing light, life, and a completely New Day to humanity through love and justice.

So in my view, separating those two concepts doesn’t take away from the spiritual layer; it actually makes it cleaner! Satan is the functional adversary (our lower, fear-driven nature acting as an accuser), while the “Morning Star” is a functional title for leadership and destiny.

18

Actually I think we have Dante and Milton to thank for the association of Lucifer with a satan in the popular imagination. The earliest association was due to an allegorical reading of Isaiah. Which to me is just adding to the text.

2 Likes
19

Or progressively illuminating what the canon of Scripture teaches as a whole as is done in numerous places by scripture itself. The historical-critical method is only the beginning of a proper biblical hermeneutic. Using only that is to read the text like an atheist and is inconsistent with how Jesus, the apostles, the Church and ancient Jews understood it. The only thing truly being added to the text here is the modern standards you are imposing on it from post-Enlightenment, Western eyes.

Vinnie

20

Actually I hold to a progressive revelation. To expand on what I said, when it comes to an allegorical reading you have to trust the person who is doing the reading and I don’t think all the folks that equate Lucifer to Satan understand that isn’t in scripture and is a product of later church tradition. A church tradition that I would not equate with revelation.

2 Likes