Angels and Ezekiel 1

I don’t care about modern folks and their poor understanding of the issues. That doesn’t determine the correct interpretation. When you write:

Actually I think we have Dante and Milton to thank for the association of Lucifer with a satan in the popular imagination. The earliest association was due to an allegorical reading of Isaiah. Which to me is just adding to the text.

I agree with the first and second sentence but disagree with the third.

I don’t think all the folks that equate Lucifer to Satan understand that isn’t in scripture and is a product of later church tradition.

And if true, that has nothing to do with whether it’s true or not. Sola scripture is a later church tradition as well.

You are correct in that allegorical interpretations of Isaiah (and Ezekiel I believe) made this connection. Based on Jesus’s words about Satan falling in Luke 10:18, a connection to the king in Isaiah was proposed by Origen and Tertullian around the same time in the early third century. By the time of Augustine in the 5th century this was widely believed and he helped cement the idea. In the 4th century Jerome (Latin Vulgate) translated morning star into lucifer which was just a noun for venus at the time. Though even if he was wrong, Augustine (City of God, book 11) knew what he was doing because he understood the historical context.

So while Milton popularized and dramatized some modern fundamentalist thinking, the actual connection goes back to roughly a little more than a century after most of the canon is written and the belief was solidified a millennium before Milton wrote.

Augustine was interpreting the text. His methodology here is part of the standard Christian toolbox. We find connections not originally there all the time (Revelation identifies the serpent in the Garden as Satan, Jesus is typologically found in a host of places the historical-critical method would say he doesn’t belong). Ask religious Jews or any critical-scholar.

I think claiming it’s “an addition to the text” is loaded and will mislead scripture only conservatives. As an example, when I interpret Genesis 1 as ancient Mesopotamian polemic I am reading a lot of extra-biblical texts to make these claims. This extends to all of the primeval history. When I realize there were multiple “Noahs” and multiple Arks and flood stories this influence our interpretation. Scripture cannot be interpreted in a vacuum by anyone. Am we adding to the text? Or simply trying to understand it? I would argue Augustine and company was simply trying to interpret its spiritual meaning.

Early Christians constantly recontextualized the Old Testament. Dare I say even the Suffering Servant of Isaiah is an example? We constantly read the Old Testament in light of the New.

“The New is in the Old concealed; the Old is in the New revealed.” — Augustine

We can certainly disagree with Augustine on this reading or simply say it’s an unproven possibility. But to deny it requires evidence and I would ask what grounds we do so on? If the extent of the counter arguments are historical-critical only, that is not enough for me. At best it can lead to not knowing for sure.

I would honestly say if you don’t read the OT allegorically and typological like this, you are not reading it how Jesus, the apostles, the authors of scripture, the early Jews and the early Christians did. We can argue Origen/Tertullian/Augustine was wrong but allegorical readings and typology are Christian hermeneutics 101.

Vinnie

What is The Spiritual? A good start towards gaining understanding is with the Holy of Holies in the Temple of God. We need to be more on the same page.

The Holy of Holies was the Most Holy Place, the place where God’s very presence dwelt. It was separated from the rest of the Temple by a curtain or veil. The Holy of Holies is where the Ark of the Covenant was kept. Only the High Priest was allowed back there, and only once a year during Yom Kippur.

There are layers to the Spiritual. The physical and the spiritual is separated by a curtain or veil. When Jesus died on the cross, the veil tore. This is the veil or curtain in the temple. This is the veil or curtain separating the spiritual from the physical.

In Ezekiel 1, Prophet Ezekiel, as a Seer, was seeing past the veil.

The Spiritual is “Other Dimensional.” There are rules to it.

Angels are created beings with a function. Satan was a created being with a function. Angels may have picked up “titles” and “names.” Satan is “The Adversary.” “A Satan” may have been a ruler of the principalities outside of God, like Daniel and the Prince of Persia. (Daniel 10) Lucifer is a Title or Function.

What is the function of The Veil?

There is a decent short video on “God’s Holiness” from The Bible Project I like.

God is Holy and Separate from Sin. Someone who was in sin, in the presence of God, he may have died. The veil is there to protect man or as a kindness. Being in God’s presence may feel “overbearing.” Someone has to constantly be on guard and watching their heart.