I’m not convinced, but perhaps as the church? Are we not as the church the bride of Christ, and the new Israel? If we as a church ignore the hurting and vulnerable, if we protect the oppressors and attack the victims, will we not be judged? Certainly, individuals may be righteous in the midst of wrongdoing, but they also may suffer as part of the collective.
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I don’t think anybody here is trying to “offload” the culpability of personal sin into some larger collective. If anything, what’s being suggested is that you don’t get to declare yourself personally innocent while continuing to participate in and support larger corrupt or oppressive power structures that benefit you.
We are each personally responsible for our participation in unjust systems.
And yes - when a society is composed of sinful individuals (100% … not 80% - not sure how you arrive at a figure that 20% of people are sinless and therefore have no need of Christ) - then yes, all societies of such people are guaranteed to be fallen.
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Um, no. The idea of systemic evil isn’t something I just made up. It’s a thing.
Corporate sin exists. The Old Testament prophets were often calling the whole community to repentance for communal failures, not just individual failures multiplied by the population. The tendency to see things always in terms of the individual is a feature of Western culture, it’s not the default human viewpoint. I believe most cultures of the world tend to view things more corporately when it comes to things like righteousness, responsibility, and justice.
Yeah, but why isn’t that humanity corporate humanity?
What now?
This is irrelevant to the idea that societies can be guilty before God of corporate sin.
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Beautify summary and supporting ideas, Mervin. Thank you so much.
I am thrilled not to be alone in seeing this relation with the spirit of the law, being the intent of the law, and the letter of the law. Noting the letter of the law only accuses, like a ticket, but it is the spirit of the law that judges the intent of the matter.
The mind reasons, the spirit compels. Intent, motive.
[Proverbs 16:2]
KJV All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes, but the Lord weigheth the spirits.
NIV All a person’s ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the Lord.
In this, it is His loving Spirit in us, compelling us to be merciful, kind, happy, faithful, and more (Gal 5:22) to which there are no laws. And if we error, it is His Spirit, our intent that justifies and defends us, declaring us innocent. Even if we ate the show bread. Or illegally jaywalk to save a child.
To error with good intent does not deserve punishment. Punishment is reserved for ill intent.
Blessed are the merciful, for they receive mercy. but judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. If you forgive other people when they wrong you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others of their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Matthew 5:7 James 2:13 Matthew 6:14-15, Matthew 7:2 Luke 6:36
We seem lost in judging actions and words when it is only the intent that deserves judgment. And I say confidently there is nothing to judge that has not already been judged. Anger, deceit.
Spirit is not mindful. Neither love nor anger care about reason. If anger is exposed, the trial is over. “I do not allow deceit in my house, Leave.” Once the spirit is known and called out, we have authority over the spirit. But see that we are judging the spirit, not the person.
Frustrated are those who desire to rule by the law by continuing to make exceptions; else the written law becomes a tyrant.
From great empathy and my surroundings, I also know this from the other side. There is no justification for ill intent but oh do they seek it dearly. Laying in bed reliving arguments trying to find that mic drop that justifies them, but there is no justification for ill intent, they become desperate, angry, feeling everyone is judging them, they resort to blaming.
Spirit is not mindful, If you corner ill intent with the reason you will get the correct answer. “I don’t care.” To reason with a spirit is folly. Yet many become lost in arguments that never end because are trying to judge things and words, not realizing it is the spirit they object to. Who can think strait when they are emotional? Breaks my heart.
We may not be thinking straight in love either, but there we have mercy. Who objects to love?
I find the difference in blessing interesting between Psalm 32:1 & 2. The first blessing speaks of Jesus, and the second is His Spirit in us.
Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit.
Give us our daily bread.
Marvin, I would like to vote for your wonderful summary and deep dive as a “solution” if that is what it takes.
Plus, will you summarize or write all my posts for me? grin
And you think that an individual can change this? What do you want me to do? Become a hermit?
And what right do you have to declare this?
Do you think that declaring all sinful helps?
Perhaps you are blind to what is good in the world. And because you do not see it you discount it.
Christianity will always be a minority. Christ Himself declared it. Do you think that God is only interested in the minority? Try reading the end of Jonah!
There comes a point when theology becomes toxic. And you have passed that point by a long way.
Richard
I repeat. How do you think this is helpful to the individual? Repentance and salvation are on an individual level not corporate. The individual cannot repent for more than themselves. And it is difficult to the point of impossibility to disassociate yourself from the collective humanity.
Richard
Part of the consequence of seeing that sin is larger than an individual is moving away from thinking we can single-handedly fix it. We need help. That’s kind of the Christian story.
Yes. It stops us from thinking of ourselves on one level and others as ‘sinners’ who are beneath us. We recognize instead that sin infects and affects everyone, especially ourselves. That doesn’t make us blind to the goodness of creation: it’s possible to see the good and the bad without absolutizing either one.
We can admit we are stuck and that we‘ve contributed to the harm to both ourselves and others. We can repent of thinking we can solve every problem ourselves (or, of denying the existence of every problem we can’t solve).
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Is that how you see Christians?
As far as I am concerned there is no pride in admitting I need God nor any disparagement to those who seem to think they do not. That sucks of judgement.
I see no good in trying to convince others that they are somehow insufficient to live. And it is not how to make converts and influence people.
Laying the burden of guilt on society serves no good purpose. Jesus said
My Yoke is easy and my burden is light… Your burden appears to be beyond human tolerance. but to claim Christianity relieves it is not mitigation for putting it there in the first place. A shotgun wedding is not based on love.
Richard
Grinning, I agree it’s not in Genesis, We need to resolve Ro 8:20-21 as I seem to have a disagreement. I personally see it as the separation of knowledge that occurred before the garden story (satan misconceived first) and given the effects of futility and frustration are direct matches the effects of naivete. But there is way too much dogma and doctrines in this area and I have little hope given insistent defenses and refusals to reconsider the garden story as to the natural warning of the effect or it is a commandment and judgment. Some are even emotional at the idea if challenged. So to help, Let me instead back door this so not to pinpoint any event or ruffle any feathers and hope I don’t regret asking:
What caused this futility, frustration, or vanity, and when is it talking about, what happened?
Double extra credit if you can show how this imperfection entered perfection.
KJV: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
RGT: Because the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but by reason of Him Who has subdued it, under hope. Because the creation shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.
NIV: For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
Don’t you just love Paul?
And he gets so maligned!. And misunderstood.
Why, when he is talking about spirituality do you think he is still talking about the state of the physical earth? Do you think that the presence of a physical death is both frustrating and a burden? Do you think that the future Paul is looking to is on this earth, under the present conditions? Do you think that paradise means no death? (Do you think that is what Paul thinks?)
And more importantly,do you think that God imposed any sort of frustration or pain onto creation? is that perfect or even good?
Where is this theology taking you? How does it possibly help? All it does is create people who despise God for what He made.
Richard
My natural theology of naivete leads to freedom (of Gal 5:22) as the verse suggests. Again by Paul which I do love.
I’m not ignoring, but I don’t want to make what I see the subject. To disagree distracts from my question and intention. What is this frustration being mentioned, when do you see it happening, who facilitated it, and why was it done?
Thanks Richard.
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Individuals participate in systems and are complicit in corporate sin. And I do not believe that repentance and salvation are only about individual “going to heaven when you die.” I believe a huge part of the gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus preached is about entering a calling to live in a corporate reality (the church as the Body of Christ) that makes societies more just and righteous and transforms (saves) entire human cultures in the here and now. So corporate repentance definitely has a place in the Kingdom because the Kingdom is not an individual enterprise.
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The frustration is what sparked the writing of Genesis 3-4. The world is not a happy place. It is unfair, it is selfish, and it is cruel. The problem is that it is also the product of freedom. The garden is only possible if you have no idea of freedom. Just as we convince ourselves that a battery hen will be content with a life that it only knows, so Adam was content until he discovered he was naked. The poison of the apple is understanding and knowledge. Ignorance really is bliss.
Will there ever be another paradise?
Only if we forsake the freedom to choose and the cycle of life and death. New life needs death. And the death of paradise is freedom.
If you read Paul fully you will see that he is convinced that God manipulates. Specifically the Israelite people, but His hand is in all things. He echoes Eccl 3 where everything is controlled and unshakable. But Eccl 3 is not a reflection of reality but a frustration of lack of control. We know that what we do affects the world around us but the world has a habit of fighting back to try and restore balance and harmony.
Richard
I am sorry but that is also wishful thinking. Maybe during austere Victoriana it might have happened, but the world has moved on and discovered its power. It will not release it without a fight, and Christianity is not strong enough to contest it.
Richard
It’s biblical thinking, Richard. Read the Gospels and count how many times Jesus talks about the imminent and already Kingdom where God’s will is done and how many times he talks about going to heaven if you die believing he died for your sins. I believe Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father and God has placed all authority on heaven and on earth in his hands and he is in the process of destroying all dominion, power, and authority opposed to God’s rule. “Christianity” doesn’t need to be strong. The question is whether the risen Son of God really did defeat death and evil. My creeds and confessions of faith say he did.
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Thanks Richard.
It seems you tie the frustration to the garden story but you go off on the effects instead of staying at the source to answer the other questions. What exactly is the frustration if not naivete? Who caused it since Ro 8 suggests it was by Gods purpose (given the stated hope is godly).
My quick comment is as you suggest, true freedom comes from Gal 5:22-23, not choice as some have twisted IMO. Freedom of choice comes from naivete, else the choice is always singular, obvious, and any freedom to choose is for something less desirable as if to say I’ll use the screwdriver to pound nails to preserve my freedom to choose, or out of complete naivete as in I don’t know which, I’ll just pick one.
Personally, I tie the frustration to the story of satan who misconceived that he could become like God first and then repeated the e falsehood to Eve in the garden.
I think you get me wrong. Obviously I do not doubt the basic gospel but it is the approach and detail to evangelism that has changed. It is more on a need-to-know basis than a full exposition.
Do you really think that kingdom is on earth?
Clearly that is not a Trinitarian viewpoint.
Why do you think it has taken so long? The disciples and Paul were convinced it would all happen in their earthly life time Do you think maybe that we have made the same mistake as the Jews in our understanding of salvation? The Jews were looking for a political freedom., I wonder what freedom we look for? Do you think that freedom can still exist if all evil and opposition are removed?
I am not questioning the faith (or yours specifically) only the practicalities and realities of it.
Perhaps there are warnings, portents, and signs that are still to come before the final victory?
And perhaps the cost of victory would make it a little empty (although we would probably be oblivious to it)
Richard
I think God’s kingdom is a reality of God’s governance of his creation that is sort of a parallel reality to our own. I think the ultimate culmination of God’s reality uniting with our reality won’t happen until the Eschaton, but it has been inaugurated. God’s reality broke through into our reality at the Incarnation and continued to break through with greater force at the Resurrection and Pentecost. So yes, I believe God’s kingdom is breaking into our reality on earth and we can participate in making it a more visible, tangible reality to everyone as collaborators in God’s kingdom.
Come again? It’s straight out of 1 Corinthians 15, Matthew 28, Colossians 2, 1 Peter 3, and Philippians 2. The Father sends the Son to accomplish his will and then the Father exalts the Son and gives him authority over everything. That is classic Trinitarianism.
Oh, I think we’ve made our own mistakes in our understanding of salvation by making the gospel into “how to avoid hell.” I don’t think that’s the gospel Jesus, Paul, or the other apostles preached.
When opposition to God’s rule is finally fully eliminated, then humans will be free to flourish in the ways God intended for them. I am not going to conflate the freedom to thrive (freedom from the power of sin) with free will because I think they are different concepts. I think we can cooperate with the trajectory of God fulfilling his purposes for creation before he ultimately completes the task of making all things new.
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YES!
Both want the instant gratification of divine magic coming down out of the sky. But I think it is crystal clear that God doesn’t work that way… and for very good reasons. The use of power only brings superficial changes to paint over the rot at the heart of things. We have to learn the right way for ourselves or it doesn’t have any real meaning.
Freedom from responsibility the same as always.
Yes. The problem is that the real evil is inside of us and so it cannot really be removed unless we remove it.
yeah I know… it is a contradiction… cannot do it ourselves but we must do it ourselves… God’s solution is “small moves” (movie reference “Contact”)
It is here where we part. I m sorry but I cannot accept this self-loathing. I have seen more good than evil in people. IME it is the minority not the majority that displays evil predilection.
Perhaps it is not strictly scriptural, but…
Perhaps this life has more value than you seem to want to credit it with?
Richard
PS Yes I know that movie well