I am not going to rehash our discussion of two years ago (you brought up ‘entitlement’ there, too), but being birthed, as in born again, is not something you own* nor is it entitlement. It is irreversible, however, as are the adoption papers indelibly signed in eternity by a powerful hand, never to be undone.
*It is something you can ‘own’ in the sense of recognizing its reality and application to yourself. You can only feel sorry for those Christians who are always worrying about the permanence of their condition with respect to their Father in heaven. We do need to test ourselves to see if we are truly in the faith, however, but that was discussed as well.
My theology is not based on Genesis 3. Yours appears to be only based on Genesis 3.
Do you believe there is such a person as an innocent? Someone who cannot sin because they do not have the capacity to understand good and evil?
Do you think. perhaps, that the natural urge for self-protection or self-interest is the cause of sinning? Which would make sinning innate? IOW is self-interest a sin? (Maybe a bad habit?)
Self-protection/interest would seem to be hard-wired into all life including humanity so it must be a part of creation. and a deliberate aspect from God. If so, how can it be sinful in any way? (Unless sin was always part of the creation God intended)
You seem to have jumped here.
I was suggesting that anyone who does not recognise, or understand God and/or spirituality, would not be aware of the penalty you are claiming. Why should they?
A child, who is learning about the world, will make mistakes and you seem to think that in this period those mistakes make them become spiritually dead and because of it making all adults automatically spiritually dead? (perhaps?)
So, perhaps, it is not the mistake that causes a sin, but the decision to “risk” consequences that can be predetermined? And it might be possible to technically not sin if the outcome is unexpected or beyond their foreknowledge?
IOW you are viewing more sins that actually occur when you are assessing the sinful nature of the world as a whole (Which seems to be your starting point) And humanity is not as sinful as you claim. (Not that you have any right to sit in judgment over humanity)
Yes, we shouldn’t put responsibility on people that exceeds their capacity.
I do think that instincts that serve a good purpose can lead to sin, especially when we make those instincts ultimate. To use an extreme example, an instinct for self-preservation, taken to an extreme, may see every other person as a threat to be eliminated. It’s not that self-preservation is a bad thing, but being dominated by our instincts without higher reasoning is a shame for those capable of such reasoning.
I think sex is hard-wired into life as well, yet it’s also possible to sin sexually. I see no reason why something created by God should be impossible to misuse. To the contrary, sins generally deform a created good.
Sin has wider dimensions that affect communities and creation generally. I tend to view sin as what makes us unable to thrive in God’s presence. Basically, actions that, if let into the renewed creation, would make it as broken as now.
I was just getting to that post.
But I’d rather not get into definition duels. I’m not writing in code so that special definitions of sin and goodness are needed to parse what I wrote.
Not so much a duel as a starting point for understanding.
I have always found that it helps to speak the same language but that does not always follow. Some words do not transcend even the UK let alone across the proverbial pond.
I have always considered sin to be a one to one thing rather than communal, but perhaps the communal acceptance of an act or behaviour that is sinful would be what you are thinking of? So that individual morality can be altered by peer pressure or even public opinion. That would certainly be the case with homosexuality whereby the prevalent view is acceptance now whereas before it was rejection?
LOL Absurd. It is not even case that my theology is only based on the Bible. I came to Bible with the worldview of science and the philosophy of existentialism. And I came to Genesis with the teachings of Jesus in the gospels and of Paul in his letters. It is true that I did not come to the Bible with people telling me what it says already. I read it for myself and came to my own conclusions.
What if I dump my trash on a bit of public land that isn’t even the direct responsibility of one person to clean (so that my sin can’t even be considered a direct sin against one individual who is tasked with cleaning up after me)? So in this “tragedy of the commons” scenario, who is the recipient or victim of my sin? Or perhaps a better example - as so-called “disposer of recyclables”, I instead reap personal profits for myself by dumping the ship loads of trash into the ocean. Who is this a sin against if it isn’t communal?
Did you look for any sort of corroboration for your views? Having seen the way you latched onto 1 John 1 I suspect not.
Do you think that either Paul or Jesus looked at the garden as real or theological? Paul was still a pharisee at heart and there is no sort of endemic sinning in Judaism, not Original nor the learned type you seem to think exists.
As I understand it existentialism works on an individual basis so where does your communal working come from. Are we really just the sum of our upbringing?
This is not criticism, this is just learning.
You seem to be trying to be perverse? The sin is individual to the person doing it rather than the result of a group. That the recipient is communal does not make it any less a one-to-one deal, The community acts, in this case, as a unified body.
I’m only trying to tease out what you mean when you insist there is no ‘communal’ sin. Okay - so there can be communal victims, but you’re speaking of the perpetrator as being necessarily individual then. That could probably be challenged too, but I’m not trying to be contrarian and will drop it if you don’t care to argue. That’s fine too.
Only to determine that I fall within the spectrum of Christianity before claiming to be Christian.
How strange… I had to look this up to figure out what in world you are talking about… and… failed… I still haven’t a clue what you are talking about. I am sure I have read it before… long ago… but in what sense have I “latched onto it?”
Don’t believe in putting things into their head… or anybody elses head… not like you do. I doubt they made any such distinction.
I do not think so. I see Jesus being more of a Pharisee than Paul.
what “communal working?”
Nope. Nor are we independent of our upbringing. In general I think we find a few things in our upbringing that we don’t like and rebel against those. But then we find much later in life that we are far more like our parents than we ever thought.
Don’t get me wrong. You are just voicing what others are not. I am not taking offence. I enjoy a little harmless banter, especially if it clarifies things.
I can think of cases of communal sinning where a body of people are of like mind or allow themselves to be taken along a path they might not normally choose or even agree with. However, within that group, each person takes responsibility for their own actions. They could always stop at any point. Peer pressure is not really an excuse for bad behavour but I am sure it is one that has been used (and abused).
What about when whole societies set up systems that perpetuate evil and injustice? Each individual person may not be consciously choosing to do something wrong, but their participation in and support of unjust systems contributes to brokenness and harm in the world.
Oh… I found it. verse 10 “If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar.”
LOL
Well I confess I heard people quoting that one long before I read it myself, so of course, it was important to me to form my own opinion on the matter. So… I notice that what it does not say… is that every human being is born a sinner. Nope that is not in the text! So I concluded that was one of the alterations people have made. It only says that people cannot truthfully say they have not sinned.
But this is not the only source for the idea that all have sinned. There is also Romans 3:23 “since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” So I guess I have “latched onto 1 John 1:10” in order to dispute the idea that people are born sinners. But this does not disagree with Romans 3:23 since it hardly says that people are sinners even before they have sinned.
The Bible is full of stories where Israel was judged for the sins of the collective nation. Now, as a democratic society, perhaps we even bear more responsibility for the actions of our country than ancient societies.
Aren’t we taking this to extremes? Is there any reason to do so? (other than to try and prove me wrong?)
What are you trying to prove with this? What is the relevance?
You want to say that society is basically fallen? go ahead! But, the bible claims that the knowledge of good and evil is inbuilt “I will write my laws on their hearts”. And isn’t the whole point of the Garden story that humanity gained the knowledge of good and evil?
There is no excuse for sinning. It is down to the individual to make that decision and it is possible (maybe unlikely) for an individual to never make that decision. Christ said
Do not sin again.
He did not say
You must believe in my death and resurrection! (because you are unable not to sin)
Romans is Paul wrangling with what he sees as judgement on Israel. He is convinced that not only is God set against Israel but He has somehow forced Israel to turn from Him…
The whole notion that God would limit salvation to one way of thinking is contrary to everything we know about God It would not be just. It ignores all who lived before Christ and anyone living outside the reach of Christianity both then and now. (Which includes those indoctrinated against Christianity, or who have been irrevocably set against it for one reason or another.)
You realise it is not Christian to condemn 80% of the world?
Israel is supposed to have a unique relationship with God. They are His people. It is a collective thing. But. like I said above Christ met with the individual not the nation.
I cannot see how I could possibly be held responsible in any shape or form for the state of the United Kingdom. Even my one vote holds little meaning when I live in an area who traditionally votes Labour (or whatever party you care to name)
If the Garden story means anything at all it is the futility of claiming “it’s not my fault!” when called to account… Blaming society as a whole is no different.
Paul was still a Pharisee at heart. Judaism has no doctrine of universal sinning and Paul would not have just invented it. So if you think you see justification for what you believe in Paul’s witing then think again.
