A.Suarez's Treatment on a Pope's Formulation for Original Sin's Transmission!

This exciting discussion is leading me to the insight that defining God as “self-existent” may be misleading.

In any case it is crucial to realize that:

God is NOT an “existing self” or “a single personal identity”.

God is:

“Three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) co-existing and sharing a single act of being”.

Each of these three persons is in relationship with the two others.
God’s act of being or God’s life consists in this relationship, God is a relational entity.

The Father cannot be said to be “self-existent”, in the sense of “existing by himself”, independently of the other two divine persons. And the same holds for the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit are CO-EXISTENT; it is these three persons all together who say: “I am who I am”.

A further important point is that these three divine persons decided to bring about other persons (the angels and the human beings) and ordered and called them to be in loving relationship with them (the three divine persons), and with each other (the other angels and humans). To be a person does not mean to be called to exist as an individual for himself, it means to be called to co-exist with other persons.

In this sense, the human beings are projected towards unification with the three divine Persons, towards divinization. After the last judgement we will NOT become “self-existent”: We will CO-EXIST for ever with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. And this is what the Fathers and Doctors of the Church (St. Irenaeus, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas) mean by stating that “God became human so that we might become God”.

At the end of the day of judgement, the creation of the angels and human beings will appear as sort of “God’s growth” that increases the number of ‘selves’ (not of persons) co-existing in God, according to John 17:21-23:

that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us […]. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.

This “expansion of God” will be achieved after the last judgement.

1 Corinthians 15: 24-28

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all .

If you look at this whole context, it is plain that it is NOT “simply a figure of speech”!

In my view, it is you who “infer and extrapolate way beyond reason”.

Well, it certainly does not mean “we become God”! That has been demonstrated amply elsewhere. Please excuse me from further discourse about this.

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You are excused to leave when you want.

I have appreciated your interest in the thread, but can’t help stating that nothing “has been demonstrated amply elsewhere”.

Two examples:

You argue that we cannot become God after the last judgement because “we will have resurrected bodies, like our Lord’s”.

From this it follows that our Lord himself cannot be God!

A really astonishing demonstration!

Is this a “demonstration”?

You are conveying the impression you think you are God Father ruling as Supreme Judge about who is mistaken, long “before the Last Judgment”! :grinning:

It does not. Was the Holy Spirit encapsulated in Jesus’ body? Was God the Father? Oh, I guess not.

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

if God is the sea you can look at the clouds to be those who separated from God so if we are the raindrops we are ourselves and will remain so for a while until in the end we become part of the sea again. But we are then not our “self” any more and not God but the drop in the sea that is now part of the sea. so we are part of God again. hope you can follow my drift and make the model more complete and coherent.

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According to the teaching of Jesus-Christ, God consists in the relationship between three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Before I answer your interesting comment I would be thankful to know whether or not you share this belief in the Holy Trinity.

mY PICTURE OF THE TRINITY IS HOWEVER DIFFERENT AS BEING A Venn diagram with God containing two circles inside the larger circle, thus showing all of Jesus to be God. So perhaps you could imagine God as the body of water with Jesus being the ocean and the clouds being the spirit with us being the drops breaking free and struggling to find our way back to the pool

I am afraid that you are not asking the relevant questions:

Is God the Son “encapsulated” in Jesus’ body?

Is the resurrected Jesus truly God?

Is the resurrected Jesus’ body a true human body?

According to Scripture the answer is:

Jesus’ resurrected body is a true human body, and the resurrected Jesus is truly God.

As far as you agree to this basic teaching, then:

From having a resurrected body, you are not allowed to infer that someone cannot be God!

What you claim that “has been demonstrated amply elsewhere”:

Is a blatant non sequitur !

Jesus can, you and I cannot.

In any case, you acknowledge that someone can have a resurrected body and be God.

Good point!

Now the question arises:

As a matter of fact, the Trinity decided that God the Son becomes flesh and and shares a true human body.

If “God is spirit”, to which specific aim did God this “madness”?

So you at least appear to finally agree that we cannot ‘become God’.

I do not understand your question. Aim and madness?

I take for granted that you, like me, acknowledge the following truth:

The Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit) decided that the Son becomes flesh and shares a true human body.

Such a decision looks at first sight as “madness”, for “God is spirit ”.

So my question is:

What is God’s purpose by agreeing to “fall” into “madness” and become a corporal human body?

To increase his joy.

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(Asked and answered earlier, too ; - ) …

So, God can increase!

God’s joy is concomitant with the generation of the Son.
God’s joy increase by making us sons in the Son, i.e. by making us God!

Jesus Christ is: “God not made making us God”.

This sounds like a non sequitur to me. Thanks.

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Aw, come on, really? We’ve been over this before, again and again. Does a larger adoptive family turn the children into their father? The father’s joy is increased, but the children have not become their father!

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Please note that I am NOT stating “we become God the Father”.

My claim is:

We become sons in the Son, or words in the Word:
After the last judgement we become (if we only want it) like verses of a magnificent Poem.

Thereby we enter the relationship between the three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). We enter God’s family life as a son more, and we have a name (we are someone) forever.

And this means to become God, and increase the Father’s joy!

The Angels (and Saints) rejoice (and their joy increases) to see God’s will done, and the Father is pleased that we have entered the kingdom - I cannot use the term ‘increase’ when speaking of God (just as cannot say something is more then infinity).

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“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

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