A.Suarez's Treatment on a Pope's Formulation for Original Sin's Transmission!

None of those arguments(?) turn us into equivalents of God.


I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.
-Isaiah 42:8


It’s a little difficult for us born types to become self-existent! XD


As long as we live on earth, to be “equivalents of God” does not mean to be omnipotent or omnipresent, but rather having “the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!”

(Philippians 2:5-8).

The devil was tantalized by God’s power and glory and wanted to grasp them “to his own advantage”. Since the beginning of humankind the devil and his angels try to delude us humans the same way. The first human sinners fell into the temptation, and we (their posterity) fall again and again. We tend to identify God with power and glory, because we covet these attributes. In the cross God hides His power and glory so that we can only see what He actually is: Love, and as sinners are moved to freely love God.

After the last Judgement, we will be a unity of love with Jesus Christ and, with him and through him, with the Father and the Holy Spirit. And thereby we will become what God actually is: Love. This is what I mean when I state (following the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church) that “God became human, so that we might become God”.

I apologize for insisting once again:

Categories like “being omnipotent or omnipresent” apply to God before the last Judgement.

After the last Judgment the proper way to define God is stating that God is love!

I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.
-Isaiah 42:8

Do you see an expiration date on this verse?

Well, that’s somewhat of an improvement – we’re not becoming God here, anyway.

You still have a problem with the language, the meaning of words. God is still actually and will be omnipotent and omnipresent and self-existent, we will not. “The sky is clear.” Does that mean that is all the sky actually is?

1 Like

YES, the Day of the Last Judgement, according to Scripture:

Isaiah 42:17
The expiration date will be the Day when:
“those who trust in idols, who say to images, ‘You are our gods,’
will be turned back in utter shame.”

Revelation 21:3-4
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes.

1 Corinthians 15:28
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

After the Day of Judgement delusion is no longer possible,
and none will say to images “You are our gods”.

Happy New Year to all of you!

Excellent comment!

As long as we live on earth, and before the Day of the last Judgement, we can be considered creatures and as such we are not self-existent, as you very well remark.

After the Day of the last Judgment, “God will be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15: 28). And to the saints in heaven God will then say: “I will be their God and they will be my children.” (Revelation 21:7).

This means that the status of the saints after the Day of Judgement is no longer that of “being made” by Got, but that of “being begotten” by God as children of God in Jesus Christ. There will be what one could call an ontological leap from “creature of God” to “children of God”, self-existent in and through Jesus-Christ.

This is what is announced in Ephesians 1: 4-6

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will — to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

In summary, after the Resurrection of the Dead and the Day of Judgement the status of “creature” disappears, and God will be all in all.

Not one of your verses says that God is going to give his glory to another. Try again.

I already say that I am God’s child. Do children ever become their fathers?

We’ve already talked about that. It does not mean we will be God. That would be an unreal stretch.

We know who is making unjustified leaps.

You remain mistaken.

1 Like

Here quite explicit:

John 17: 22-24
I have given them the glory that you gave me , that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me— so that they may be brought to complete unity. Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

The Father gives his glory to his Son, Jesus-Christ, and Jesus-Christ gives the Father’s glory to those who believe in him.

If (as you interpret) “God is not going to give his glory to another”, then we are led to conclude that:

by receiving the Father’s glory from the Son “those who believe in Jesus-Christ” become necessarily God himself!

It doesn’t in Christianity. It refers to a single substance.

And all others are subdivisions of God’s glory.

1 Like

Happy new year to all Biologists - or should it be Biologosts or Biologosists or Biologhosts?

Fascinating to see this thread still going. Long forgotten its origins and wondering as usual at this time of year who might have made it into the new year and who might now hopefully be at one with God and therefore in eternal life.

One more Christmas gone and one more year of worry about us having turned Christmas into the pinnacle of sin, the celebration of human wishful thinking. What does it mean that Jesus was born free of sin? Did it mean that he had to be conceived without copulation as this is how sin is transmitted, e.g. is sin an STD?That would give a boost to in vitro fertilisation, no sex, just clean sterile science and technology, free of the contamination of sex. Yet to me invitro fertilisation is the ultimate method of the transmission of sin as those children are a pure product of human will over submission to “thy will to be done”, especially if the child is denied access to one of its natural parents.

My understanding of the Immaculate_Conception is, that in order to be free of original sin, that the child was not conceived by the will of man for the sake of procreation of oneself, ones tribe, thus glorifying the self. Thus my understanding of Mary being raped under military occupation by a roman soldier would fit such a conception as it would have been against the wish of procreation as the act was performed as a death sentence to the woman as to either kill herself or to be killed by her own people. The decision to submit to such a pregnancy is not born out of human wishful thinking and still seen as unworthy and dispensable in “modern” society. Whist I find that not surprising in the light of the moral deprivation of egocentric naturalism the comment by Theologians like NT Wright that such a claim would be a slur on Christianity is alarming. To me such statement is a declaration of theological bankruptcy as it suggests a discriminatory value of life that would be in disagreement with the sanctity of life per se. It would be nice to get him to explain himself or perhaps anyone who shares his opinion as to why Mary becoming pregnant in rape would be a slur with regards to God or Christianity. Logically it would solve the problem of Jesu to be without sin, e.g. human will being a stain on his existence and him being the extension of his biological fathers will which would be his sinful inheritance, e.g.“Erbsünde”. Let alone it would make his birth as well as his death on the cross a miracle, e.g. a sign of God not as in being an act of magic or “un-naturalism” as some people think of miracles but the logically coherent sign of God. It makes sense of the word of God not being “abracadabra” but “love thy neighbour like your own” becoming flesh, und the profound power of this word in both instances to turn an act of hate and oppression into a beacon of love and hope. If that is not the most powerful demonstration of the power of love, then what is? The best thing is that we are all given this power to make that difference our self by submitting to his will.

But these verses are before the last judgement, not after as you said earlier. Make up your mind.

Thanks for the suggestion.

My mind in this matter is as follows:

The statement:

I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8)

Can be interpreted in two ways:

God will not give his glory to idols.

In this sense the statement can be considered in force till the last judgement, since till this day there may be people on earth “who trust in idols, who say to images, ‘You are our gods’”.

After the Day of Judgement, God’s warning will no longer be necessary.

God will not give his glory to someone who is not God.

In this sense, the crucial verses John 17: 22-24 and Romans 8:17 can be considered to convey the following message:

After the last judgement Jesus Christ will give to the saints in heaven the glory the Son received from the Father before the creation of the world, and this glory will complete the sanctification process and make that the saints become God.

This is very much the message the following verse conveys too:

Romans 8: 14-16:

For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

Someone who cry “Abba” to the Father by the Spirit of God, is truly adopted God’s son, and thereby entirely God in the Son: After the last judgement there will no longer be “creatures” because God will be all in all.

No. It won’t. Becoming completely and lovingly obedient to my Father with no residual desire to sin or being capable of sinning unintentionally does not make me him.

Since when do adopted children actually become their adoptive fathers? Since never and never will. There must be something in the drinking water where you live.

There will no longer be creatures. The created will become self-existent. Good grief.

1 Like

You infer and extrapolate way beyond reason what is simply a figure of speech. It has to do with passion and love. If I were obsessive and passionate about my Lamborghini, it would be my all in all. I would not become a Lamborghini. :laughing:

Jesus’ resurrected body was physically different, describable as a ‘spiritual body’, but it did not become pure spirit since it was visible, he could eat and he could be physically touched. Since we know there are more dimensions than the four spacetime ones we inhabit, it is reasonable to infer that is what is the intended meaning of a ‘spiritual body’ is – not confined to our natural dimensions. That does not mean we become God.

1 Like

I don’t think so. It doesn’t mean what you need it and want it to mean.

1 Like

I am doing nothing other than interpreting
I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. (Isaiah 42:8)

with Scripture:
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me , that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. […] 24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world . (John 17:22-24)

17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. (Romans 8:17)

That’s what everyone does.

“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6

This is a place for gracious dialogue about science and faith. Please read our FAQ/Guidelines before posting.