Ok.
What do you consider biblical literacy? Someone who actually reads it cover to cover on a regular basis, or someone who has a college education in the bible?
The curious thing is— I’ve had hundreds of discussions with people who claim to be convinced evolution is how all matter and life came into existence.
When I ask them to explain it— they can’t. OR won’t… I’m still not sure which. And when someone does make an attempt to explain it-- they all have completely different descriptions. And none of them match what my 7th grade science teacher taught my 7th grade classmates and I in 1972.
Not only does it appear no one can agree on what it is, it also appears that the definition is constantly in a state of change, and never able to just pick a definition which is consistent.
So, while I agree that it’s easy to say that I don’t understand evolution, which would excuse the claimant from bothering to examine it themselves, and explain a consistent definition, I’m still waiting.
So… please. Don’t pull this excuse with me (that I don’t understand, or haven’t studied it). It only shows me that you are among those who are unable to consistently explain it.
I don’t accept evolution explicitly because of the biblical narrative of creation, and no language which shows it just happened, as some kind of cosmic accident.
I further reject evolution because there is such complexity on earth.
I see creation, from an highly intelligent, and capable mind, who is intimately aware of the complexity, in such a manner as to be able to over-turn such laws when dealing with the miraculous. And, yes I do believe that miracles occur. And have evidence for such.
I ran across an article this afternoon on this issue.
I read someone’s post above that they’re not seeking to convert/convince me that evolution is true. Yet I find the following.
The debate about biological origins continues to be hotly contested within the Christian church. Prominent organizations such as Biologos (USA) and Faraday Institute (UK) insist that Christians must yield to an unassailable scientific consensus in favor of contemporary evolutionary theory and modify traditional biblical ideas about the creation of life accordingly.
The Bible says Moses did write it. It says over and over throughout that the words were the words that Moses spoke to Israel from God. Deut 31:9 says that Moses wrote the law and had the priests keep it. Deut 31;24 says Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished. Many times in the gospels Jesus quotes the Pentateuch and attributes it to Moses’ word and in Mark 12:19 the Jewish leaders say “Moses wrote for us…”. Jesus said in John 5:46 that Moses wrote of him. It says over and over that the law was given by Moses and that he wrote it.
Maybe they have better things to do. That’s like saying, every time I ask someone to explain trigonometry to me, they can’t or won’t. No kidding. If you are actually interested, here is Dennis’ free crash course. I’m sure you are aware that we now have amazing things that we didn’t have in 1972. Like tunneling electron microscopes, fossils of “missing links,” and a map of the genome. It could be that you have some gaps in your knowledge of the subject.
The definition of evolution is change in allele frequencies within a population over time. Your wait is over!
There is nothing in the evolutionary model that necessitates a belief in a “cosmic accident.”
What about the evolutionary model in your mind rules out complexity?
I agree life points to a designer and a purpose and something about us intuitively looks to God when we see creation. I also believe miracles occur. That doesn’t rule out the evolutionary process itself, just a commitment to scientific materialism.
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You are quoting an organization that actively opposes everything we do. Do you honestly think they are giving an objective assessment of what we are all about? Did you notice any actual quotes of things BioLogos has published? There are a couple other threads on the topic of this book here and here if you are interested.
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You’re reading statements about specific passages in the Pentateuch, and assuming they’re talking about the entire Pentateuch. For example, the words in Deuteronomy 31:24 are an explicit reference only to the words which “Moses said to the assembly of Israel in the Transjordanian wastelands” (Deuteronomy 1:1). This is a basic Bible literacy issue.
This is not at all surprising if you are dealing with Pro-Evolutionists who are trying to explain things without God’s involvement. This is the beauty of BioLogos and its discussions.
It is the best of both worlds! God is there to use natural processes as part of his creation . . . while still having the ability to provide the miraculous as needed.
I don’t think your ‘best’ Bible scholars are right. I can read the Bible myself and if they think it is not historical, then they cannot understand plain English - or Hebrew or Greek for that matter. I heard someone say it is poetry. That would be the worst poetry I have ever heard. It is so obviously prose that you can’t miss it unless you really want to miss it for some reason.
The passages Are about the whole Pentateuch in many if not most of the passages. The Bible calls the Pentateuch the Law of Moses over and over and over, hundreds of times and I quoted a few of the many times (100 in the NT?) where the Bible attributes quotes of the Pentateuch to Moses. The Jews have always talked of the OT as the Law and the Prophets. It is obvious that Moses wrote it. According to your logic, he didn’t write anything that wasn’t quoted in the NT or have the words “Moses commanded this” added to every verse. It sounds like the only way to establish Moses wrote the whole thing by your logic is if every single verse is quoted of tagged with his name. That is just ridiculous. That would be like someone attributing a hundred quotes from Romeo and Juliet to Shakespeare and then saying because he didn’t quote the entire play that he doesn’t believe Shakespeare wrote it.
Evidence please.
No, you quoted a handful of places where specific passages are attributed to Moses. In contrast I have given you the Bible’s own witness, verse by verse.
No that is nothing like what I said. I pointed out a single verse, for example, as evidence that Moses wrote 33 whole chapters.
P.S.S.
The Bible says that ‘all’ scripture is inspired of God. It doesn’t say all except certain words. You can see that the writers of the new testament treat the text the same way as I do. Jesus said not one jot or tittle would pass from the law, that is a smaller division than even words. Jesus said his words would never pass away. When Jesus talked with the Jews, they both treated the words of scripture as accurate, the way I do, and had no disagreement on this. For example, Jesus quoted words from a Psalm to prove his point in John 10:24-36 and said the scripture cannot be broken. Paul also in Gal 3:16 points out that the scripture uses the word ‘seed’, not ‘seeds’, depending on the accuracy of this word of scripture to prove his point. If you read through the NT you see scripture used exactly as I am using, word for word accurate.
If you read through the New Testament you will quickly see that the Old Testament is often not quoted word for word at all. Sometimes what is quoted is different to the Old Testament we read in English.
Yes Jesus said that, but you take his words and represent them as meaning something completely different. This is clear evidence that you are not taking his words at face value.
Evidence that the passages are about the whole Pentateuch is my example from Romeo and Juliet. The law is always attributed to Moses when it is quoted. It is never attributed to anyone else. By the way, I am obviously not talking about the parts that God probably had Joshua add. I say probably Joshua because God did instruct Joshua to add the Bible after Moses was gone. That of course is who wrote Joshua.
No, because your example of Romeo and Juliet was trying to address an argument no one was making. The real problem here is that you are not actually listening to what the Bible says about the Law of Moses.
But the Law is not the Pentateuch. The Law is inside the Pentateuch. What you are saying is like saying “The letter to the Romans is always attributed to Paul, therefore Paul wrote the New Testament”.
And right here you show that you are perfectly happy to decide for yourself that some parts of the Pentateuch weren’t written by Moses, and even decide for yourself who actually did write them, even though the Bible doesn’t say anything like this. Again, this proves you do not read the Bible at face value. You look at the words on the page, and then you make up your own mind about what they meant.
I didn’t say it quoted it word for word. I am saying that it was quoted as being accurate word for word. The NT can paraphrase an OT quote and both the original passage and the NT paraphrase can be word for word 100% accurate. Just because it paraphrases the OT doesn’t mean it is saying that the original is not 100% accurate. It is only demonstrating that you can paraphrase the original 100% accurate statement and still have another 100% accurate statement.
You’re not seeing the disconnect here. What’s the point of saying the Bible is “word for word accurate”, if you agree that we can use other words to say what the Bible says, and still be accurate? If all you really meant was “The Bible is accurate and reliable”, then you could have just said that. It is clear that the New Testament writers did not consider it important to reproduce exactly the same words which are in the Old Testament, so what’s the point of your comment about every jot and tittle?
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The law of Moses is the Pentateuch.
The Bible does say that Moses wrote the Law (=the Pentateuch) and it also says that God instruct Joshua to add to the revelation. It is a reasonable assumption that Joshua wrote about Moses’ death, however maybe Moses wrote that also. It could easily be a prophetic writing by Moses. Either one is possible without changing the fact that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. Where Joshua started his contribution to the revelation is a small detail. It doesn’t change the fact that Moses wrote at least 99% of it and therefore would be the author.
So, the answer to your first question is Moses wrote the Pentateuch. Any more questions for me?
I did not say the WE can use other words to say what the Bible says, I said the authors of the Bible can paraphrase(with God’s help to get it accurate) and have another 100% accurate statement. When you or I use different words to say what the Bible says, we might be close, but cannot be guaranteed to be 100% accurate.
I hate to do this again, but I need to leave again. I was not able to start earlier because this site prevented me from posting too many posts on my first day and so I had to wait a couple of hours before I could start today. I hope you all have a nice evening.