How could Judas have changed? Jesus was dead and couldn’t save him. So what was his choice? He didn’t live to see the risen Christ like Peter and Paul.
All will turn to Christ when He brings them up. Starting with Judas.
@Klax already addressed this some. I’ll just add (I think in some agreement with him) that repentance has to start somewhere … remorse is a start, and it appears Judas had that in spades. I know - and you’re correct, that repentance must involve a turning away - a change, and where possible, making things right. But some sins just can’t be undone. If you think that you have a large share of responsibility in a dear friend’s death (and now see that in fact what you did is recognized as a betrayal of that friend who - so far as you know - is gone forever), what sort of recourse did Judas have? There would be no visible way of “making that right” available to him. What a dark journey - seemingly beyond hope by any of our human standards. Others too, today, commit sins (like murder) from which there is no way to make restitution to surviving victims … no way to “make things right”. Are they too beyond the reach of Christ? Perhaps his love just isn’t up to the task according to some of today’s evangelicals. It is a pretty tall order, after all. Our own love is pretty easily conquered - it doesn’t take much (way short of murder in fact) to make us want to think of somebody as forever cast out. And maybe it’s a safe bet that today’s evangelical has largely created a god made in his own image. Limited supply of love … get in on it while supply lasts.
So it’s a good thing that the real God actually has real grace on tap. We evangelicals will be obliged to drink deeply of that cup as we painfully find our way back from our various political idolatries back to reality, truth, integrity, and the biblical Christ.
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It would seem, if universal salvation were true, spreading the gospel would be less important. Why bother? Everyone’s going to be saved sooner or later, whether they like it or not, no?
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Every knee will bow, not all willingly.
Every knee shall bow? context? …let’s check it out… quotations from Isaiah 45:23
Isaiha 45:22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear.’
24 “Only in the Lord, it shall be said of me,
are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed,
all who were incensed against him.
25 In the Lord all the offspring of Israel
shall triumph and glory.”
Any universalism here? No.
Victory only in the Lord – it says.
There is no righteous cause against Him.
But turning to Him remains a requirement.
Any change when this is quoted in Roman 14 or Philippians 2?
Romans 14:7 None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
12 So each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Any universalism here? No.
It is not that all shall live, but that we shall only find life in the Lord.
We shall not judge, but there will be judgement, for “every knee shall bow” means we shall give an accounting to God.
Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Any universalism here? No.
This is imploring us to follow Christ’s example of humility because our salvation is not a matter of guarantees and entitlement, but of fear and trembling.
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That fits nicely with universalism. It’s rather vapid, though.
Nah. If you think it’s cool to make fun of other people’s trauma, you go ahead and stay up there. I’m done.
I wonder if anyone has written the “ChrIstian Salvation for the Complete Idiot” book yet. Judging from my own experience I’m pretty sure there’d be a market. As I look over this thread and the current works/faith thread and back over the Scot McKnight Soteriology thread I realize I’m not really sure what exactly is at stake. In particular I find myself wondering when salvation is thought to take place, pre or post mortem or possibly both? What is required to attain it is less a concern to me than what it consists in.
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Sounds like a money-maker to me.
Put me down for one, but they have to keep down the jargon and ancient Babylonian as much as possible.
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Amen. (And “Aaaaamen” to make 11 characters).
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This is somewhat ironic for a universalist - the recourse for all who repent is to change and have faith that God forgives us. Judas had that choice if he repented, and maybe he will be given another chance, who knows? The point in these discussions is that we are not in a position to know what every person may do - only God can make such a judgement.
Glad we had this discussion and now I say farewell.
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…yeah… sorta like “don’t sweat it too much if there are people needing
I don’t know what I could have written to give you any idea that I would think that trivializing trauma is good. Either I was a lousy communicator or else you need to invest a bit more in comprehending what I wrote somewhere - or maybe a bit of both. I guess it’s up to you to decide, though, if understanding is worth any more effort.
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If not willingly, then that thought of Paul’s is nothing more than a mockery of the Divine glory that I think Paul fully intended us to meditate on. If a threatening tyrant exacts grudging “praise” from his subjects under the threat of torture, and this counts as “tongues confessing”, then God is mocked as nothing more than a cruel tyrant worthy of nothing more than our opposition. Yes - (perhaps all of us at some point) approach God with fear and trembling - indeed fright. But love and relationship cannot be satisfied with such imperfection - so much impediment left there to cast out.
“Knee will bow” doesn’t always mean praise – and is not so in those passages. And “not all willingly” doesn’t always mean grudgingly. In Isaiah 45 “knee will bow” means only in the Lord is to be found righteousness, strength and triumph. In Romans 14 it means we shall all be judged by God. And in Philippians it means humility seeking salvation with fear and trembling.
And accordingly “not all willingly” doesn’t mean grudgingly but simply the way things are. In that case your accusation of “cruelty” is a complaint against the uncompromising nature of the truth. Nor does fear and trembling necessarily mean fright caused by some threat. Consider the fear of the unknown, for example. Or how about the fear of dealing with things that you cannot manipulate and control? Some might prefer the words “respect” or “humility” rather than “fear,” and this fits very well with the usage in the passages above.
In fact, I think a central theme here in “every knee shall bow” is acknowledging that no righteous cause can stand against Him – an acceptance that He is right in all that He has required of us. And these need not come from some divine right to arbitrary demands, but from the logical necessities of love and relationship themselves.
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Christ is salvation. That’s His name: Salvation, Jesus, Joshua, Yehoshua, Yaweh - God - is salvation. Because He is the only possible warrant for God as ground of purposed being at all, that God is. There is no calculus of who is in and who is out of Him, there is only calculus of who is aware of Him in this blink of an eye. His title is The Elect. When the Father He reveals looks down on humanity, He sees all through the lens of Christ who offers us all up. We are looking through the other end of the telescope with degrees of eye defect.
He never had a chance. Not that it has anything to do with chance. And you are walking away from yours.
You don’t know that. There is room for disagreement here - though as Mitchell essentially states too; truth and reality is uncompromising … to all of us where we err.
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That’s me using bad reverse psychology on @GJDS. He’s not walking away from a salvific choice. But he is walking away from the choice to examine why he believes in salvific choice. But it cannot be helped
: )
Well said.