Do you have children of your own? Our children aren’t perfect - far from it, and in fact may have habits that are quite annoying to us - or even just bad generally. But … we love them anyway, right? And in fact, it is because we love them that we hate it so to see their bad sides or their bad behavior. If they are young children - still subject to our training them up; we strive mightily to separate them from any ill attitudes or ill deeds. Why wouldn’t God do that for us - only in more perfect and persistent ways than we human parents ever could?
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The analogy doesn’t work for me Mervin. I don’t see Him doing anything analogous to human. Apart from becoming one. I adore my kids.
No, it’s not really that hard to see. The people in my fellowship, if you mean my friends, are fairly well read, and I’m the only Christian among them. My culture of evangelicalism has produced Rob Bell (author of Love Wins), Greg Boyd, Thomas Jay Oord, and others who stalked this ground long before you arrived and planted your flag.
I’ve been listening. You shouldn’t take it personally that I’m not convinced. You aren’t the only voice I’ve ever heard on the subject.
Can either of you dismount that high horse? Should I fetch a ladder?
That’s one way to interpret the “faithfulness of Christ.” But insisting that your interpretation is the only valid one is no different than the literalists who confuse their interpretation with absolute truth.
Hold a little space for the possibility you’re wrong.
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That’s what the incarnation is. Much better than any old analogy even!
I’m afraid of heights. I’ll dismount if you promise to hold the ladder. 
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I think we see repentance differently. Judas may have regretted the outcome, but instead of changing and becoming deeply a new person by choosing a new life in faith, he hung himself.
Peter regretted his denial, and then went on to live a life of faith. Paul (as Saul) regretted being a fanatic and was changed into a man who went on to live by faith and devoted himself to Christ. I can go on and on.
Repentance is a profound change from an evil person to one who seeks the Good from God. This requires regretting the evil done AND a change to a new person in Christ. Paul has discussed this, including the death of the old sinful man into a new person who turns to Christ everyday to enable the new life.
It seems to me that the discussion on universalism ignores this central teaching of Christianity and instead personalizes the matter through human oriented analogies.
One of the problems is that you proclaim, amazingly, that your deconstructed God is incapable of ever intervening into time and space reality (but somehow you still allow Jesus’ incarnation), and you base that on some rational, but untrue, presupposition(s). Then you reconstruct him erroneously, as well.
(Thanks to @SkovandOfMitaze, a strong annihilationist, and some others, I am not as insistent on ECT as you once thought me [not that I necessarily ever was], but I do recall earning your label of ‘damnationist’ at some point along the way.)
Universalism was foreseen by the epistler, however:
Your doctrine is certainly soothing to PC ears, at any rate, whether or not they were itching.
Come on Jay, you left out the context:
As you helplessly demonstrate Jay.
And they’re not here. Greg Boyd’s journey from Catholic through Pentecostal has a regressive dysfunctional offshoot of pagan, demiurgical dualism. Apparently he is here! On BioLogos. Hi Greg!!
By your fellowship I mean your fellowship; the bums you warm a pew with. Rob can do no wrong (although he’s slightly away with the fairies : ), Brian McLaren, Rachel Held-Evans, Steve Chalke are giants because they all leave poor old Luther behind. At last. I joined evangelicalism with my millenarian cult as it deconstructed itself. Just as Rob took off.
So it would seem that you know no Christians, personally, who think like you? Me too. Not for a over a hundred miles.
I’ve been listening. You shouldn’t take it personally that I’m not convinced. You aren’t the only voice I’ve ever heard on the subject.
I’m a deeply marred savage Jay, I’ve just finished Faith After Doubt, by Brian, this morning. Hence my change in tagline. All too little too late.
Can either of you dismount that high horse? Should I fetch a ladder?
Self-deception works just fine in me in every other direction, especially the ones I’m not aware of. And Mervin astounded me by really pushing the boat out on those can thank God that they are not as other men.
How could Judas have changed? Jesus was dead and couldn’t save him. So what was his choice? He didn’t live to see the risen Christ like Peter and Paul.
All will turn to Christ when He brings them up. Starting with Judas.
@Klax already addressed this some. I’ll just add (I think in some agreement with him) that repentance has to start somewhere … remorse is a start, and it appears Judas had that in spades. I know - and you’re correct, that repentance must involve a turning away - a change, and where possible, making things right. But some sins just can’t be undone. If you think that you have a large share of responsibility in a dear friend’s death (and now see that in fact what you did is recognized as a betrayal of that friend who - so far as you know - is gone forever), what sort of recourse did Judas have? There would be no visible way of “making that right” available to him. What a dark journey - seemingly beyond hope by any of our human standards. Others too, today, commit sins (like murder) from which there is no way to make restitution to surviving victims … no way to “make things right”. Are they too beyond the reach of Christ? Perhaps his love just isn’t up to the task according to some of today’s evangelicals. It is a pretty tall order, after all. Our own love is pretty easily conquered - it doesn’t take much (way short of murder in fact) to make us want to think of somebody as forever cast out. And maybe it’s a safe bet that today’s evangelical has largely created a god made in his own image. Limited supply of love … get in on it while supply lasts.
So it’s a good thing that the real God actually has real grace on tap. We evangelicals will be obliged to drink deeply of that cup as we painfully find our way back from our various political idolatries back to reality, truth, integrity, and the biblical Christ.
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It would seem, if universal salvation were true, spreading the gospel would be less important. Why bother? Everyone’s going to be saved sooner or later, whether they like it or not, no?
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Every knee will bow, not all willingly.
Every knee shall bow? context? …let’s check it out… quotations from Isaiah 45:23
Isaiha 45:22 “Turn to me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness
a word that shall not return:
‘To me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear.’
24 “Only in the Lord, it shall be said of me,
are righteousness and strength;
to him shall come and be ashamed,
all who were incensed against him.
25 In the Lord all the offspring of Israel
shall triumph and glory.”
Any universalism here? No.
Victory only in the Lord – it says.
There is no righteous cause against Him.
But turning to Him remains a requirement.
Any change when this is quoted in Roman 14 or Philippians 2?
Romans 14:7 None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
12 So each of us shall give account of himself to God.
Any universalism here? No.
It is not that all shall live, but that we shall only find life in the Lord.
We shall not judge, but there will be judgement, for “every knee shall bow” means we shall give an accounting to God.
Philippians 2:3 Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Any universalism here? No.
This is imploring us to follow Christ’s example of humility because our salvation is not a matter of guarantees and entitlement, but of fear and trembling.
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That fits nicely with universalism. It’s rather vapid, though.
Nah. If you think it’s cool to make fun of other people’s trauma, you go ahead and stay up there. I’m done.
I wonder if anyone has written the “ChrIstian Salvation for the Complete Idiot” book yet. Judging from my own experience I’m pretty sure there’d be a market. As I look over this thread and the current works/faith thread and back over the Scot McKnight Soteriology thread I realize I’m not really sure what exactly is at stake. In particular I find myself wondering when salvation is thought to take place, pre or post mortem or possibly both? What is required to attain it is less a concern to me than what it consists in.
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Sounds like a money-maker to me.
Put me down for one, but they have to keep down the jargon and ancient Babylonian as much as possible.
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Amen. (And “Aaaaamen” to make 11 characters).
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This is somewhat ironic for a universalist - the recourse for all who repent is to change and have faith that God forgives us. Judas had that choice if he repented, and maybe he will be given another chance, who knows? The point in these discussions is that we are not in a position to know what every person may do - only God can make such a judgement.
Glad we had this discussion and now I say farewell.
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…yeah… sorta like “don’t sweat it too much if there are people needing
I don’t know what I could have written to give you any idea that I would think that trivializing trauma is good. Either I was a lousy communicator or else you need to invest a bit more in comprehending what I wrote somewhere - or maybe a bit of both. I guess it’s up to you to decide, though, if understanding is worth any more effort.
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