Yes, we can be moral without God…

…and that should scare us.

A man I know once called me “a ■■■■.ing indoctrinated idiot.”

And the most interesting thing was the reason why he insulted me. What he found indoctrinated was my refusal to regard human beings and non-human animals as ontologically and morally equivalent.

I wasn’t denying that humans are animals biologically, I was saying that a human being possesses a fundamental dignity which does not depend upon intelligence, self-awareness, usefulness, independence, or the cognitive abilities he happens to be exercising at a particular moment.

My acquaintance rejected precisely that premise.

What makes the episode more interesting is that, outwardly, he was a perfectly decent person. I did not experience him as cruel, antisocial or morally indifferent. On the contrary, he had moral convictions strong enough to regard me as morally corrupted by indoctrination.

That is important, because one of the most comforting (for many; not for me) arguments about secular morality runs like this: “Look, people don’t need God to be good. Atheists love their families, help strangers, condemn injustice and sacrifice themselves for others. Therefore morality is safe without transcendence.”

The first sentence is obviously true, it’s the second that worries me.

If the disappearance of God simply turned human beings into visibly amoral beasts, if atheism reliably produced people incapable of love, loyalty, compassion or conscience, the problem would almost solve itself, and the necessity of some transcendent moral order would become glaringly obvious. We would look at what humanity became without it and immediately understand what had been lost.

But that is not what happens.

We remain moral.

We remain capable of tenderness and outrage.

We remain capable of calling other people evil.

And that means something much more disturbing is possible: we can possess a powerful conscience while being profoundly wrong about what that conscience is telling us.

Matter and the missing “ought”

This argument requires a careful definition, because atheism doesn’t logically and intrinsically entail moral nihilism. An atheist may believe in irreducible moral facts. Erik Wielenberg, for example, explicitly defends “godless normative realism.” The argument begins only when we add reductive materialism: the claim that reality is exhausted by natural facts and that there are no irreducible normative properties outside that order.

Once that premise is accepted, the difficulty is severe.

A complete physical description of a murder could tell us that a projectile entered a body; tissue was destroyed; nociceptors fired; consciousness ended; relatives experienced grief.

No increase in physical detail converts any of those descriptions into “therefore this ought not to have happened”.

J. L. Mackie begins Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong with the deliberately blunt claim that “there are no objective values.” His argument from queerness asks what kind of property objective wrongness could possibly be if, unlike ordinary natural properties, simply apprehending it somehow supplied a categorical reason for action. His alternative is error theory: human beings objectify their attitudes and experience them as features of reality. https://courses.edx.org/c4x/GeorgetownX/phlx101-01/asset/marquis.pdf

Now, the PDF link above is to Marquis rather than Mackie, so the safer Mackie text is the Colorado scan already discussed: https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/readings/mackie.pdf

Evolutionary explanations make the problem sharper. Sharon Street asks why natural selection, which selects traits for reproductive success rather than philosophical accuracy, should have produced evaluative intuitions reliably aligned with independent moral truth. https://sites.pitt.edu/~mthompso/readings/street.pdf

Richard Joyce gives the unsettling hypothesis its cleanest form: selection may have produced creatures disposed to “invest the world with values that it does not contain.” The important thing is not whether every detail of that evolutionary genealogy is established. It is that materialism already possesses the resources to explain why morality feelsobjective without presupposing that objective morality exists.

Parents who fiercely protect children survive.

Groups that punish defectors can outcompete groups that do not.

Empathy facilitates cooperation.

Guilt modifies behaviour.

Disgust protects boundaries.

Loyalty binds coalitions.

None of this requires evolution to have discovered a metaphysical property called wrongness.

So the austere materialist faces a choice. He may identify morality with some natural property—flourishing, preference satisfaction, suffering—or he may deny that moral prescriptions are properties waiting to be discovered in the natural world at all.

The first route immediately raises the question: why that natural property? The universe contains suffering, but why should the existence of suffering, considered merely as a physical and psychological fact, contain the further command therefore nobody ought to cause it? A materialist can care enormously about suffering. What materialism alone does not establish is why somebody who does not care has made a metaphysical error rather than simply possessing different preferences.

The second route does not remove the difficulty; it changes its form. If the prescriptive force of morality is projected rather than discovered, then moral judgments no longer report irreducible normative properties in reality. Mackie’s own conclusion is error theory: ordinary moral discourse presents its claims as objectively binding, while the objective prescriptivity it presupposes does not exist.

An expressivist may resist calling this an “error” by treating moral judgments as expressions of attitudes, commitments or prescriptions rather than descriptions of facts. But that can explain why we condemn cruelty without yet establishing that someone who sincerely approves of cruelty has failed to perceive an objective feature of reality. Constructivism offers a more ambitious alternative by grounding normativity in rational agency, ideal deliberation or principles of justification; yet this too requires an additional normative framework whose authority must itself be defended.

The dilemma remains; If morality is identified with a natural property, the materialist must explain why that property is categorically normative; If morality is projected, expressed or constructed, he must explain in what sense its authority is discovered rather than generated by human evaluative activity.

That is why Mackian error theory is such a natural resting point for reductive materialism.

And it leads to a strange conclusion, namely that moral nihilism need not produce morally indifferent people.

The nihilist’s brain can continue generating love, guilt, indignation, compassion and moral certainty.

The machinery survives after its metaphysical warranty has expired.

Why the human animal becomes difficult to privilege

My argument with my acquaintance was indeed deeper than it initially appeared.

If human beings possess no intrinsic dignity simply by being the kind of beings they are, then moral status must depend upon some additional property.

Sentience.

Intelligence.

Self-consciousness.

Autonomy.

Ability to formulate desires.

Capacity to imagine one’s future.

But these properties come in degrees.

And once dignity tracks performance, there is no reason for moral status to respect the species boundary.

Michael Tooley embraces this consequence in “Abortion and Infanticide.” His account makes psychological capacities central to the serious right to life; accordingly, human fetuses and newborns can fail the test while sufficiently developed non-human animals may fare better. He therefore has no principled reason to preserve the proposition that every human being possesses a status categorically superior to every animal. (Philosophy & Public Affairs 2.1, 1972, pp. 37–65.) https://eclass.uoa.gr/modules/document/file.php/PPP504/Michael%20Tooley%2C%20Abortion%20and%20infanticide.pdf

This is not a cheap reductio of Tooley, it’s the consistency of his premise.

And Dr Calum Miller (an Oxford-trained physician as well as a bioethicist) has recently pressed exactly the opposite argument from human equality. In Journal of Medical Ethics he begins from a remarkably modest proposition: ordinary non-disabled adult humans are moral equals. Properties such as intelligence, consciousness and psychological sophistication vary by degree. If those gradated properties ground inherent worth, then equal human worth becomes extremely difficult to explain. Miller therefore argues that the more plausible basis of fundamental equality is possession of a non-gradated property: being an individual human organism. Fetuses possess that property. (J Med Ethics 49, 2023, pp. 569–572.)

His argument is worth stating formally:

  1. Fundamental human equality must rest either on a property possessed equally or on properties possessed by degree.
  2. Intelligence, sentience, self-awareness and rational performance exist by degree.
  3. If one of these grounds fundamental worth, humans with greater quantities should possess greater fundamental worth.
  4. But our basic commitment to human equality denies precisely that conclusion.
  5. Therefore fundamental equality plausibly rests on something we possess equally as individual human beings.
  6. Fetuses are individual human beings.
  7. Therefore the fetus cannot be excluded merely because its present abilities are undeveloped.

One may dispute premise four or five, several bioethicists do, but the price of rejecting them should be stated honestly: one needs an alternative explanation of why the intelligent adult, the ordinary adult, the severely disabled adult and the newborn possess exactly equal fundamental status despite dramatic differences in the properties usually invoked to explain personhood. Miller’s critics have engaged precisely this difficulty.

The first question in abortion is biological, but the decisive one is philosophical

There is one claim medicine can help settle.

An embryo is not a gamete or merely a piece of maternal tissue.

Miller and Alexander Pruss devote an entire Bioethics article to the organismic question and conclude that there are strong grounds for holding that a new human organism begins to exist at fertilization. Importantly, they explicitly say that this does not by itself establish personhood. That distinction is crucial. (Bioethics 31.7, 2017, pp. 534–542.) https://calumsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/pruss-paper-in-journal.pdf

Standard medical embryology describes fertilization as the formation of the zygote, followed by a coordinated developmental process rather than the assembly of a human being from independent parts. Langman’s Medical Embryology, for example, lists among the consequences of fertilization the restoration of diploid chromosomes, determination of chromosomal sex and initiation of cleavage.

The medical fact therefore gives us this much: there is a living developing human organism.

Medicine cannot append: therefore intentionally killing it is murder.

That is philosophy.

But several sophisticated philosophers have argued exactly that conclusion without relying upon Scripture.

Don Marquis’s “Why Abortion Is Immoral” remains perhaps the best-known secular example. Marquis deliberately avoids beginning with the controversial word person. He asks instead why killing an ordinary adult is one of the gravest wrongs, and his answer is that killing deprives the victim of an entire future of value (relationships, experiences, projects, pleasures, knowledge, everything the victim would otherwise have had). The fetus has such a future in exactly the deprivation-relevant sense. Hence abortion, he argues, is prima facie in the same moral category as killing an innocent adult. (Journal of Philosophy 86.4, 1989, pp. 183–202.) https://courses.edx.org/c4x/GeorgetownX/phlx101-01/asset/marquis.pdf

The power of Marquis’s argument is that it asks us to use the same theory of killing on adults and fetuses: If what primarily makes my murder wrong is not my present ability to articulate my desire to live but the future stolen from me, then lack of currently sophisticated psychology does not obviously remove the wrong.

Patrick Lee approaches the issue through substantial identity (and he makes an argument I appreciate even more): his argument is that the embryo does not become the same individual only after acquiring consciousness; consciousness is something the already-existing organism later develops. In Abortion and Unborn Human Life he argues that intentionally killing that individual cannot be justified merely by pointing to its current immaturity. The book explicitly defends the proposition that the unborn are human individuals with full basic moral worth.

There is then an unusually interesting argument from the other side.

Kate Greasley’s Arguments about Abortion is not a pro-life book. Yet her chapter “Abortion as Justified Homicide” asks what follows if fetal personhood is conceded, and her conclusion is that ordinary abortion fits very badly into the conventional categories by which killing persons is normally justified: self-defence, necessity, or related doctrines. In her words, if normal abortion were justified homicide, it would be an exceptionally anomalous form of it.

That matters because it identifies the real hinge of the debate.

The easiest philosophical defence of abortion is not “Yes, this is a person, but killing him is ordinarily justified”, it instead is “This is not yet a person of the relevant sort.”

Which brings us straight back to the question of who counts.

Moral risk

Even somebody unconvinced by Marquis, Lee or Miller must face a second problem.

What probability should we assign to our own moral fallibility?

Dan Moller frames this as moral risk. His historical example is John Newton, who participated in the slave trade before becoming an abolitionist. Newton had not lacked access to the empirical reality of slavery. He had seen it.

Looking back, he wrote: “Custom, example, and interest had blinded my eyes.”

Moller’s point is that human beings can know the relevant non-moral facts while being grotesquely mistaken about their moral significance. He then applies precisely this lesson to abortion: even after concluding that the arguments against abortion fail, there can remain a non-negligible possibility that the judgment is catastrophically wrong. (Philosophy 86.3, 2011, pp. 425–443, especially pp. 433–434.) https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/C4E02BAE7D49B2B59B2C1D55B03A2B34/S0031819111000222a.pdf/abortion_and_moral_risk1.pdf

Matthew Braddock has recently pushed the moral-risk argument further: one need not be certain that abortion constitutes homicide for the possibility of homicide to carry serious normative weight. His 2026 paper explicitly distinguishes uncertainty about personhood, personal identity and the wrongness of killing and asks what precautions are appropriate when the possible error is the unjust killing of a person. If abortion substantially risks homicide, it should be illegal - PMC

I don’t need to accept Braddock’s legal conclusion to accept the epistemic question, If I am unsure whether a dark figure in the woods is a man or a cardboard target, I cannot normally answer “ I have arguments suggesting it probably isn’t a man, therefore I may shoot.”

The more serious the possible moral harm, the more our uncertainty matters.

A doctor making the case from equality

Miller’s work is especially interesting because he combines clinical training with philosophical argument rather than pretending that medicine itself settles personhood.

His 2023 equality argument is simple enough to be dangerous.

If fetuses lack fundamental status because they are less conscious, less rational or less autonomous, then these properties are doing the moral work.

But every one of them is scalar.

Some adults are vastly more intelligent than others.

Some are more autonomous.

Some have richer self-consciousness.

If degree of those properties determines basic moral worth, equal fundamental human dignity becomes difficult to preserve.

Miller’s proposed escape is to distinguish basic worth from the developed manifestation of capacities. We are not equal because we perform equally, we are equal because we are equally individual human beings of the kind whose mature members characteristically possess rational capacities.

The argument may ultimately fail, but it cannot be answered merely by saying science says fetus.

“Fetus” is a developmental stage, just as “infant” and “adolescent” are developmental stages.

It tells us how mature the organism is, it doesn’t tell us how much the organism is worth.

Why abortion could become a future moral atrocity

No serious philosopher can prove how the twenty-second century will judge us, but we can ask what would follow if the pro-life account of moral status is correct.

Dr Calum Miller makes the comparison very explicit in The Journal of Medicine and Philosophy. Writing from the pro-life premise that unborn humans possess equal moral status, he argues that abortion differs from miscarriage precisely because one is natural death and the other involves intentional, systematic human killing. He says comparisons with mass killing, including the Holocaust, are useful for understanding why someone who accepts fetal equality could regard abortion as an issue of extraordinary moral seriousness. Importantly, this is presented as the implication of the pro-life premise, not as proof of that premise. (Journal of Medicine and Philosophy 48.3, 2023, pp. 225–242.)

And Justin Buckley Dyer’s Cambridge study of slavery and abortion documents how the analogy has repeatedly arisen around the same question of equality and exclusion. Dyer himself warns against crude historical equivalences, but argues that the philosophical and constitutional parallels deserve serious analysis.

That provides a rational basis for the prediction without pretending it is prophecy.

If future moral philosophy concludes that prenatal humans possessed the same fundamental protection all along, our descendants will not merely think that we selected the wrong gestational limit, they will see an enormous category error.

They may ask how a civilization which spoke constantly of human rights could deliberately exclude millions of humans because they had not yet reached an approved level of development.

And that question will sound disturbingly familiar.

Slavery, the Shoah and the problem of membership

The comparison must remain exact, lest we fall into parody and unseriousness.

Abortion is not chattel slavery.

It’s not the Holocaust.

Those historical phenomena involved born, socially interacting people subjected respectively to ownership and racialized genocidal persecution, while pregnancy involves a unique bodily relationship between two organisms, and bodily autonomy introduces a consideration for which neither analogy has a perfect equivalent.

The real analogy lies elsewhere, because a moral rule always contains two questions:

  1. What is owed?

and

  1. To whom is it owed?

A civilization may answer the first beautifully while answering the second catastrophically.

Slavery demonstrates that people can affirm moral principles while excluding human beings from their equal application.

The history of Nazism makes the phenomenon even more disturbing because Nazi ideology did not simply abolish morality.

Claudia Koonz’s The Nazi Conscience is built around exactly that point. Nazi morality was particularist: duty, sacrifice, loyalty and reciprocity remained virtues, but the moral community was racially restricted. Nazis could regard themselves as defending a morally righteous Volksgemeinschaft precisely because outsiders had been expelled from the relevant universe of obligation.

And the primary sources are worse.

In his Posen speech of 4 October 1943, Heinrich Himmler spoke to senior SS officers about mass killing using the vocabulary of moral right, duty and decency. He simultaneously insisted that SS men must not enrich themselves from murdered Jews: murder could be interpreted as duty while theft remained dishonourable. That grotesque coexistence is preserved in the Nuremberg documentary record. Nuremberg - Document Viewer - Extracts from speeches to senior SS officers, concerning the activities of the SS during the war and plans for the future, including the extermination of the Jews

This is why Reinhard Heydrich matters too.

His monstrosity would be easier to understand if he were incapable of ordinary human valuation, but he wasn’t . Robert Gerwarth records Heydrich’s 1939 instructions concerning the moral formation of his own children: they were to be disciplined toward themselves, generous toward their own people, and merciless toward enemies of the Reich. The page reference is Gerwarth, Hitler’s Hangman, p. 139, independently documented in Uğur Ümit Üngör’s scholarly review.

That is not amorality.

It is moral particularism turned murderous.

The virtues remain.

The boundary changes.

And this is precisely what makes the comparison to slavery and abortion philosophically relevant without making the historical events equivalent.

The underlying question is who is inside the circle?

The most frightening possibility

This finally explains why “we can be moral without God” doesn’t reassure me and, I argue, shouldn’t reassure anybody.

Imagine the opposite world.

Suppose that whenever belief in transcendence disappeared, people immediately became visibly monstrous. Parents stopped loving children. Friends betrayed one another. Compassion disappeared. Murder became casual. Nobody experienced guilt.

In such a world, the argument for transcendence would be almost embarrassingly easy.

We would know what had been removed because we could see the moral faculty collapse with it.

Our actual world is much harder, because an atheist can be extraordinarily kind, a materialist can sacrifice himself for another person, my acquaintance could be outwardly decent and sincerely convinced that his rejection of human exceptionalism made him more moral, not less.

And Nazis could possess codes of duty, loyalty, sacrifice and honour while committing crimes which now stand among our paradigms of evil.

This suggests that moral psychology is frighteningly independent of moral truth.

If reductive materialism is correct, that independence becomes even more intelligible: nature only had to produce organisms with powerful evaluative dispositions, it didn’t have to give those organisms access to a transcendent order.

So we can remain deeply moral after transcendence disappears.

We can be compassionate.

We can be righteous.

We can be disgusted by injustice.

We can call someone else a ■■■■■■■ indoctrinated idiot because his moral premises offend ours.

And none of those psychological facts guarantees that we have drawn the boundary correctly.

That is why abortion matters so much to this argument: If the fetus is not the kind of being entitled to fundamental protection, the comparison with slavery and the Shoah collapses at precisely that point, but if Marquis, Lee, Miller or related arguments are broadly correct, if the being killed already possesses the same fundamental status that later belongs to the infant and adult, then abortion becomes something morally enormous.

Not because Scripture said so, not because the Church said so, not because an ultrasound is emotionally moving.

But because a civilization outwardly committed to human equality would have solved the contradiction by changing the definition of who counts as one of us.

And history gives us no reason whatsoever to believe that civilized, educated, outwardly decent people are incapable of doing exactly that, actually it proves the very opposite!

Perhaps the most dangerous sentence in ethics is not “nothing is good or evil”, it may well be “of course good and evil exist. We simply know which beings they apply to”.

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Let me know what you think about this argument, because I think it’s enormously important.

I’d rather not, for now, let’s see what other reactions you get, if any. Just to say I have read and absorbed as much as I can/want to.

Richard

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If you noticed I have made very few purely religious arguments: my arguments were of a different nature.

Which is why I am waiting to see who bites. There is still an underlying assertion about the necessity of God, but we shall see.

Richard

I’m not going to reject that premise.

I’m going to ask how you know that dolphins don’t share that same fundamental dignity.

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If we are consistent materialists and deny irreducible normative properties, then dignity itself is not something we discover in nature, as there is no particle of dignity, no measurable field of dignity, no biological test that reveals how much intrinsic worth an organism possesses.

“Dignity” is therefore either an irreducible normative reality (which strict materialism has already excluded) or it is a human evaluative construct.

If it is a construct, then saying that humans possess greater dignity than dolphins is not a scientific discovery, but neither is saying that they possess equal dignity: both claims depend on a normative framework that we impose upon the natural facts.

And that is exactly the enormous problem because, once dignity is constructed rather than discovered, the question becomes: who constructs it, according to which criteria, and what prevents the boundary from being redrawn?

A society may choose species membership, another may choose sentience, another self-consciousness, another autonomy, another ethnicity, another social usefulness.

Material reality itself does not tell us which criterion is morally authoritative.

So the problem is not whether dolphins “have dignity”, it’s whether dignity is an objective feature of reality at all, or whether it is something human beings assign.

If it is only assigned, then the moral circle is, in principle, revisable. *

And history gives us many reasons to be very cautious about trusting ourselves with the power to decide who belongs inside it.

*Peter Singer provides what i think is perhaps the clearest example of what follows once mere humanity is denied intrinsic moral significance: his argument is not simply that animals deserve greater protection, It is that moral status must follow morally relevant capacities rather than species membership, and those capacities do not respect the boundary between Homo sapiens and other animals.

In Animal Liberation, Singer argues that a chimpanzee, dog, or pig may possess greater self-awareness and a richer capacity for meaningful relationships than a profoundly cognitively impaired human being and, If those capacities ground the right to life, consistency therefore requires granting some non-human animals a right to life at least as strong as that of some humans. Singer explicitly says that the argument “cuts both ways”: we may raise the status of such animals, or accept that some human beings do not possess the inviolable status traditionally attributed to every member of our species.

He carries the point further in Practical Ethics. Because a newborn child is not yet rational or self-conscious in the sense relevant to Singer’s account of personhood, he argues that there are non-human animals whose relevant psychological capacities exceed those of a week- or month-old infant. Consequently, the mere transition from fetus to newborn cannot by itself generate the full right to life of a person.

Singer’s 2009 essay “Speciesism and Moral Status” makes the underlying conclusion unavoidable: rather than preserving the traditional belief in the equal value of all human life, he argues for a graduated conception of moral status applying across both humans and animals.

This is not an inconsistency in Singer, It’s the cost he knowingly accepts for rejecting species membership as morally fundamental.

And that is why his argument is of fundamental importance here: once human dignity is grounded in present capacities rather than in the nature of the being who possesses them, equal human dignity becomes impossible to preserve. Cognitive capacities are scalar; therefore a status grounded in them has a natural tendency to become scalar as well.

Singer does not accidentally arrive at the possibility that a pig may outrank a human infant or a profoundly cognitively impaired human being on morally relevant capacities, that possibility follows from the very architecture of the theory.

Singer’s position becomes more significant once it‘s seen not merely as one possible animal ethic, but as one of the most natural ways of remaining moral after accepting a thoroughly materialist picture of the human being.

Yes, because materialism gives us organisms and their natural properties, but It gives us no immaterial soul, no divinely conferred status, and no intrinsic quantity called “human dignity” attached to the taxonomic category Homo sapiens. If the materialist nevertheless wishes to preserve morality, he must therefore identify some natural feature that makes a difference to moral status.

The obvious candidates are precisely the features Singer emphasizes: sentience, interests, self-awareness, preferences, psychological continuity and the ability to conceive of oneself as existing through time.

But once these properties are doing the moral work, the species boundary loses its privileged position.

Sentience is not uniquely human, neither are memory, social bonds, preferences or significant degrees of self-awareness. Conversely, these capacities are not possessed equally by all human beings: newborns, profoundly cognitively impaired humans and some patients with catastrophic neurological damage possess less of certain relevant capacities than some mature non-human animals.

At that point there are only three obvious ways to preserve the categorical superiority and equal fundamental status of every human being.

One can appeal to an immaterial soul or a transcendent source of human dignity. The strict materialist cannot do this.

One can claim that biological membership in Homo sapiens is itself morally decisive, but this simply asserts the normative significance that still needs to be explained: taxonomy is a natural fact, not yet a moral argument.

Or one can ground status in capacities and interests.

Singer chooses the third option and follows it consistently.

The result is a graduated moral order extending across species rather than a categorical human–animal divide. In “Speciesism and Moral Status,” Singer explicitly argues that the mere difference of species cannot determine moral status and concludes that we should abandon the belief in the equal value of all human life in favour of a graduated account applying to both humans and non-human animals.

This is why Singer’s most disturbing conclusions are not eccentric additions to an otherwise conventional naturalism: they arise from refusing to arbitrarily insert human exceptionalism into a materialist ontology without an independent justification.

Materialism alone doesn’t intrinsically entail Singer’s ethics, but materialism combined with moral impartiality, rejection of arbitrary discrimination and the requirement that moral status supervene on natural properties generates powerful pressure in precisely Singer’s direction.

The materialist who rejects nihilism therefore faces an uncomfortable choice: either explain what objective property makes every human being equally and categorically more valuable than every non-human animal, or accept that moral status must follow the actual capacities and interests of individuals wherever they occur.

Singer chooses the latter.

And once the premise of intrinsic human dignity has been removed, it is difficult (arguably, impossible) to accuse him of inconsistency for doing so.

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…and note that you haven’t answered.

If ‘dignity’ is assigned by humans, then there is no problem - you have simply decided that dolphins don’t have it. But that’s your decision, and others can decide differently, which is what you are arguing against.

But if ‘dignity’ is an objective feature of reality, you should be able to objectively determine whether dolphins possess it. But you seem unable to. Which suggests you can’t determine whether humans have it either, at which point your premise evaporates and your argument against ‘dignity’ being assigned and hence revisable goes with it.

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First, I am not claiming that dolphins, pigs or other animals have no moral worth: my claim is that human beings possess a fundamental dignity that is greater than the dignity of non-human animals and doesn’t rise and fall with intelligence, autonomy, self-awareness or cognitive performance.

Now suppose, as you suggest, that dignity is simply assigned by us.

Then yes, absolutely yes: I can assign a special status to humans, while someone else can assign the same status to dolphins or pigs.

But then neither position is written into reality. There is no objective fact saying that humans have greater dignity than dolphins, but neither is there one saying that they have equal dignity. More importantly, there is no objective fact saying that every human being has equal dignity either, that is exactly the problem.

Imagine that we knew every material fact about a human being, a dolphin and a pig: their brains, genomes, intelligence, capacity for pain, self-awareness, social relationships, preferences, everything.

We would still have to answer a different question: which of those facts determines intrinsic moral worth?

Materialism itself doesn’t answer it.

Choose sentience, and pigs suddenly matter enormously.

Choose self-awareness or sophisticated cognition, and some non-human animals may outrank some human beings with very limited cognitive capacities.

Choose autonomy, and newborns become difficult cases.

Choose membership in Homo sapiens, and you still have to explain why that biological fact carries categorical moral significance.

Simply pointing to a natural property does not tell us why that property ought to determine moral status.

That is why Singer is relevant: he rejects the idea that species membership possesses some unexplained moral privilege and follows capacities and interests across the species boundary: you may dislike where that leads, but materialism alone gives you no reason to stop him.

To preserve equal and fundamental human dignity, something else has to do the normative work.

Perhaps moral value is an objective fact that cannot be reduced to a purely descriptive inventory of matter.

Perhaps moral properties really are identical with certain natural properties. That is a legitimate philosophical position, but then you need an additional moral theory explaining which natural properties they are, Materialism itself has not selected them.

Or perhaps we construct morality ourselves.

But then what governs the construction?

If principles such as impartiality, equality or rational consistency already have objective authority, then normativity was present before we constructed anything.

If they don’t, then the material facts themselves do not determine which ultimate moral standards we must adopt. Our standards may be coherent and carefully reasoned, but at the deepest level they remain dependent on an evaluative standpoint , one inevitably shaped by culture, psychology and the Zeitgeist in which we happen to live.

That is what I mean by arbitrariness here. Not random choice, but underdetermination by the material facts themselves.

And that makes your phrase “others can decide differently” far more important than it sounds, because If there is no normative truth independent of those decisions, another society can draw the moral boundary elsewhere. We can dislike its values, find them inconsistent with ours, even find them horrifying, but to say that it is objectively wrong already presupposes a standard that transcends both its preferences and ours.

As for your second point, this doesn’t follow

If dignity is objective, you should be able to objectively determine whether dolphins possess it.

Objective does not mean physically measurable. A metaphysical (which is why I completely reject the modern concept that scientific knowledge is the only knowledge that matters) or moral truth, if such truths exist, need not appear under a microscope.

Nor does uncertainty about dolphins logically imply uncertainty about humans. Not knowing whether B has property P does not entail not knowing that A has P.

But I am happy to concede the more important point: I absolutely cannot derive objective human dignity from reductive materialism.

That is not my premise evaporating, that is my premise being confirmed.

My argument is that a purely material description of humans, dolphins and pigs does not, by itself, tell us what any of them is intrinsically worth.

So the real distinction is simple: compatibility is not grounding.

Some form of objective morality may be compatible with a material universe, but materialism qua materialism does not give you equal human dignity, human superiority over pigs or dolphins, or even the very proposition that dignity exists.

Those require additional normative premises.

My own view is that human dignity is objective and grounded in what a human being is, rather than in how well that human being happens to be functioning.

That claim requires its own metaphysical argument.

But showing that it cannot be extracted from reductive materialism is not a refutation of my position.

It is one of the reasons I reject reductive materialism in the first place and it’s also the reason I consider materialism exceedingly dangerous and, ultimately, anti-human (its dangerousness being mitigated only by the lingering Christian principles even in societies that have largely rejected Christianity, Western Europe being the obvious case in point, much, much more than the USA, because the USA are far less secularized).

  • The Meaning of Dignity - Donna Hicks
  • "So what I’d like to begin with is sharing with you my understanding of what dignity means. I’ve really worked a lot on this, and it took me a while to come to an understanding of what it is. And after researching it for such a long time, I finally came to the conclusion that it’s a very simple concept. And we don’t want to complicate it either, because the simpler the better, and everybody will understand what dignity means if the concept is simple.

And so my understanding is that dignity is our inherent value and worth. Every single one of us, we all have dignity. We’re born with it. It’s part of who we are as a human being, and we all have inherent value and inherent worth. And in fact, I would even argue that we are not only valuable and worthy, but that we’re invaluable, that we’re priceless, and that we’re irreplaceable.

So my definition is really very simple: that our dignity is our inherent value and worth. And there’s another piece to it, which is our dignity is also very vulnerable—vulnerable to being harmed and injured. So yes, we have an inherent value and worth, but at the same time, it is so prone to being injured and wounded. And frankly, I think that’s probably as equally as an important part of the definition as, you know, the first part of the equation.

So another aspect of the definition, and really I think is important to clarify, is that I think dignity is very different from respect. I often, whenever I give a talk, I’ll ask people just to tell me, “What do you think dignity is?” I just take, you know, ideas from the audience, and inevitably the first thing people say is “respect.”

And oddly enough, if you now—if you pay attention to what you hear, the word dignity, you’ll hear it as if it’s all one word: “dignity and respect.” This is just what people do, and they confuse it. And it’s a problem because, you know, as I said earlier, I think everybody has dignity. Every human being who’s born on the planet has dignity. But with respect, I think respect is earned.

So when you confuse those two things, especially in my field, in international conflict, where people are clamoring, “We want to be treated with respect. We must be treated with respect,” but I think what they really want to say is, “Treat me with dignity. Treat me as a human being.”

Because, you know, if you’re in a conflict and you don’t respect the other side, then you’re gonna have trouble getting that out of your opponent or your enemy. But if we make the claim that everybody deserves dignity, and what needs to happen here as part of the resolution process of these conflicts is to try to restore the dignity to a relationship, that’s very different from demanding respect from people."

  • Aug 21, 2018. Dr. Donna Hicks, author of the best-selling book Dignity: Its Essential Role in Resolving Conflict, has gained worldwide recognition for her unique approach to transforming conflict by shedding light on our universal desire to be treated with dignity. Dr. Hicks has 25 years of experience as a facilitator of international conflicts in the Middle East, Sri Lanka, Colombia, Cuba, Northern Ireland and the United States. Her unique focus on dignity and the essential role it plays in resolving conflict has transformed work environments for the world’s most prominent companies, non-profits and governmental agencies.
  • Immanuel Kant argued that dignity belongs exclusively to rational beings, meaning human beings. In his view, animals and objects have a price—meaning they can be bought, sold, used as tools, or replaced with something of equal value. Human beings, however, possess dignity because they are capable of moral reasoning, self-awareness, and free will. Because a human life is irreplaceable and cannot be given a price tag, it must always be treated as an end in itself, never merely as a means to an end.
  • While modern legal and philosophical debates have tried to expand the concept of dignity to include animals or nature (often focusing on the capacity to suffer), the traditional, foundational definition is that dignity is a uniquely human attribute tied to our moral agency and inherent value.
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I don’t actually disagree with much of the Hicks quotation. I disagree with what it can establish.

Defining dignity as “inherent value and worth” is perfectly reasonable, but saying that every human being possesses that inherent worth is a further claim, and saying that humans possess it while dolphins or pigs do not possess the same fundamental status is a further claim again.

A definition cannot establish either of those conclusions.

Hicks is largely stating the moral premise I am trying to ground: every human being has an inherent worth that does not have to be earned. I agree. My question is why that proposition is objectively true rather than simply an exceptionally important moral commitment of ours.

Her distinction between dignity and respect is also useful. Respect in the evaluative sense can be earned; fundamental dignity, on her account, cannot. Again, I largely agree.

Kant is more interesting because he actually attempts to provide a foundation, but the description above slightly misstates him.

For Kant, dignity does not belong to humans simply because they belong to the biological species Homo sapiens. What does the moral work is rational nature: autonomy, rational agency, the capacity to set ends and to stand under moral law, so a genuinely rational non-human being would, on Kantian grounds, qualify for dignity. Conversely, grounding dignity in rational capacities creates a famous difficulty concerning human beings who radically lack those capacities. Contemporary Kantian philosophy has had to deal seriously with precisely that problem.

So Kant cannot simply be cited as establishing: human organism → dignity.

He provides a substantive metaphysical and moral argument about rational nature, and that actually reinforces the question I was asking.

Suppose we put a human being, a dolphin and a pig in front of us and specify every biological and psychological fact about them.

Which fact generates fundamental dignity?

Sentience? Then pigs and dolphins qualify.

Self-awareness? Then the boundary cuts across species and becomes difficult for some human cases.

Autonomy? Same problem.

Rational nature? Now we have something recognizably Kantian, but we have introduced a substantive normative theory; we haven’t derived dignity merely from the material fact of being human.

So Hicks gives us a compelling statement of what human dignity is supposed to mean and Kant gives us one serious answer to why certain beings possess it, but neither establishes that a purely material description of Homo sapiens contains, by itself, the proposition that every human being has equal and categorically greater intrinsic worth than a dolphin or a pig.

And that distinction (between defining dignity, asserting who has it, and actually grounding it) is exactly the distinction I have been making.

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I do agree with this. While there are gaps between humans and animals in regards to these qualities, I do not find the arguments that they are entirely absent in all animals, and they are fully and culpably present in all humans, to match up with behavioral observations. But I regard the fiat relationship with man, initiated by God, to be the distinctive. The ability of mankind to engage with the spiritual might involve general material capabilities, but the essence of that relationship is of divine source, initiative, and purpose. Humans are then his chosen animals, and with that comes distinct spiritual, social, and moral dimensions.

All of that is just what makes sense to me, none of which I pretend to have any deeper, compelling, argument for.

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  • I like bacon and pork ribs, and after watching the movie about the Survivors eating their deceased teammates after the crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571, I guess I could eat a dead human under the right circumstances, but I can’t imagine eating a dolphin. And although I’ve eaten octopus once, I never will again.
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Exactly.

The point I made in the article was not that we cannot have a morality without God. We absolutely can, and that is precisely what should scare us out of our minds.

The Nazis themselves were not simply amoral psychopaths. Some undoubtedly were, but that was not what defined Nazism. They had a morality of their own, and a very precise one at that. They had moral standards: many condemned pedophilia, theft, and various other crimes and they would have never committed those crimes themselves (obviously there were also completely unhinged psychopaths like Dirlewanger but that’s beside the point).

And that is exactly what should terrify us. The fact that we, as human beings, are capable of being “moral” without God does not mean that the morality we develop will necessarily be humane. It may, in fact, become profoundly anti-human, or even downright satanic ( and having a satanic mindset and predisposition doesn’t require actual belief in the existence of Satan).

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So the claim is that any moral apart from God will be warped or intrinsically evil, or at least, not be righteous or “good”.

Thereby changing the definition of Moral.

Richard

No. My claim is not that any moral apart from God will be warped or intrinsically evil, or at least, not be righteous or “good“.

An atheist or materialist may be compassionate, honest, self-sacrificing and, by ordinary Christian moral standards, morally better than many professing Christians.

But that establishes something about moral psychology and behaviour. It doesn’t yet tell us what makes those moral convictions objectively true.

That distinction is very important because the issue question is not whether l a materialist can love his neighbour, the issue understanding what, under reductive materialism, makes “you ought not torture your neighbour” objectively and categorically true even for someone who does not care about suffering?

Atheism by itself does not entail moral nihilism, and a non-theist such as Erik Wielenberg can affirm irreducible objective moral facts. Moral naturalists can argue instead that moral facts are natural facts.

Those are serious positions, but they also show why “atheists can be good people” doesn’t answer the philosophical problem.

If morality is reduced to natural facts such as suffering, flourishing or preference satisfaction, one must still explain why those facts possess categorical normative authority. A complete physical description of suffering can tell us everything that happens in the nervous system, the mind and society. More descriptive detail does not by itself produce “Therefore nobody ought to cause this.”

The naturalist may have an answer. But he has to provide one.

Evolution makes the issue sharper, because natural selection has obvious reasons to produce parental love, empathy, guilt, reciprocity, loyalty and hostility toward defectors: none of this requires evolution to have discovered objective moral truths. That does not prove moral skepticism, but it does establish something important: the strength and sincerity of a moral conviction cannot guarantee its truth.

And this is where I think the real danger lies.

The alternative to Christian morality need not be amorality, It may be another morality.

People can retain compassion, sacrifice, outrage, loyalty and moral certainty while changing their answer to a deeper question:

Who possesses fundamental worth, and why?

That is historically far more frightening than simple nihilism.

Nazism did not abolish morality: It reorganized it: duty remained, loyalty remained (“Meine Ehre heißt Treue“), sacrifice remained.

Even a conception of “decency” remained.

What changed was the moral community to which those virtues applied.

The virtues survived, the boundary moved.

The same lesson appears in the history of eugenics. Eugenic sterilization was not defended simply by saying that morality was meaningless. It was defended in the language of science, social welfare, public responsibility and improvement. It existed not only in Nazi Germany but also in countries such as Japan.

Japan provides an especially sobering example. From 1948 to 1996, the Japanese state enforced the Eugenic Protection Act, whose stated purpose included preventing the birth of what the law called “inferior descendants” from a eugenic standpoint. Under its provisions, approximately 25,000 people were sterilized, overwhelmingly on the basis of disability or particular medical conditions. The policy was not merely passive: a 1953 government notice stated that, in certain cases, sterilizations could be carried out using physical restraint, anesthesia or deception.

What makes the case philosophically important is that this was not the private conduct of isolated extremists: It was state policy, administered through law and medical institutions for nearly half a century, on the assumption that preventing certain people from reproducing served a legitimate social good. In 2024, Japan’s Supreme Court held the relevant provisions unconstitutional, concluding that the state had discriminated against people with particular diseases and disabilities and imposed an extraordinarily grave sacrifice upon them. The Court emphasized that the policy had been actively promoted by the government itself.

Later that year, the Japanese government and parliament formally acknowledged responsibility and apologized for policies pursued under what they now explicitly describe as the mistaken eugenic objective of preventing the birth of supposedly inferior descendants. The new compensation law also recognizes that people were subjected not only to sterilization but, in some circumstances, to abortions because of disability or disease.

The relevance is not that Japan was uniquely cruel, nor that Japanese society today endorses such ideas. It is almost the opposite. A modern, educated society can institutionalize a hierarchy of human worth while understanding the policy as rational, scientific and socially beneficial. The people administering such a system need not believe that morality has disappeared. They can believe that they are acting responsibly.

That is precisely the danger: a society does not have to abandon morality in order to abandon equal human dignity. It need only change the properties by which it decides whose life, fertility, independence or continued existence deserves protection.

Japan is useful here not as an example of a society that “abandoned Christianity” (historically that would be false: they’ve never been Christian to begin with) but as evidence that concepts such as dependence, burden, autonomy and social usefulness do not carry exactly the same moral weight in every culture. Its twentieth-century eugenic legislation also shows how judgments about disability and human worth can become embedded in respectable institutions.

The point is that, when a society abandons a metaphysical worldview (like Western Europe largely did), its moral psychology does not disappear overnight.

People inherit morality before they philosophize about it.

They inherit it through parents, law, education, literature, institutions, habits, taboos and ideals.

A society can cease believing in the metaphysical foundations of an older moral order while continuing to live for generations inside many of its moral conclusions.

Nietzsche understood this very well: he thought Europeans had underestimated what the “death of God” would eventually mean for the morality historically built upon Christian belief.

And we are already seeing that in the case of abortion. Modern moral culture generally assumes that a newborn, a severely disabled person, an unconscious patient and a highly intelligent adult possess equal fundamental worth, yet it arbitrarily denies it to the child in the womb. And none of this establishes, moreover, that the same logic that led to this will not in the future be applied to, say, disabled person or even people who are no longer productive (like the elderly population).

And this doesn’t mean that we will become satanic monsters in the process, the frightening possibility is precisely that we can remain intensely moral while becoming profoundly mistaken about what morality requires.

Human beings do not need to abandon conscience in order to commit moral catastrophes, they can commit them through conscience.

They do not need to abandon compassion, they can redefine who deserves it. Today we have defined they the child in the womb doesn’t deserve compassion, tomorrow we may decide that it’s the disabled, or the elderly (perhaps with the intent of not burdening the active population with an inflated social welfare and the costs that come with it), that doesn’t deserve it.

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Daniel 8:24-25: “He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power“

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12: “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

Revelation 13:5-10: “The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. Whoever has ears, let them hear.“If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.” This calls for patient endurance and faithfulnesson the part of God’s people.”

Obviously the world needs to be prepared for his appearance, so that “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast”. The world is not prepared yet but the process has already begun (since the 1960’s, aproximately). His time will come once the moral degeneracy (moral degeneracy for God’s standards, I’m not talking about secular standards; the two are extremely different as already shown previously) and godlessness of the West have spread to and corrupted the rest of the world.

And for a Christian, that dignity rests on the Blood of Christ: every single human being has that same infinite value.
This is one of the great flaws of Islam: in that cult, only males have dignity. It lifted this idea from Gnosticism, just as it lifted much of its content from other Christian heresies. It is also one of the great strengths of Christianity and stands opposed to any kind of involuntary subjugation: all those for whom Christ died stand equal in value.

I see two kinds of respect, one derived from the dignity of being one for whom Christ died (in being made in the image of God), which is inherent, and one for being accomplished at something whether it be poetry or engineering or mediation or integrity or whatever.

I don’t make that claim: I claim that everyone has dignity, and the problem is that many reject the dignity of anyone who doesn’t belong to their ‘clan’, whether white or Asian or Jewish or brown or MAGA or pygmy or Baptist or communist or whatever.

We should expect to share such attributes with animals given that we are the ‘idols’ in YHWH-Elohim’s cosmic temple: an icon must have common ground with those to whom it represents the deity; given our original commission as imagers we should expect that pretty much all the characteristics found in animals should be found in mankind as well (from self-sacrifice to self-worship).

Indeed at least since the Fall we should expect to find inhumane moralities, as they are expressions of our base animality detached from the One Whom we are meant to represent!

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I think the claim that any moral standard apart from God will be flawed since we have come unhooked from the Maker whose nature we are to present to all Creation. That doesn’t mean we will fail in all of it; I think that would mean (as some in fact claim) that we have lost the image of God – but since we were not given that image as some secondary bestowal but as the nature of who we are, to completely lose that image would be to cease to exist. Indeed we may perhaps live up to the standard 99.99% (like fine gold); after all, numerous societies have arrived at the Golden Rule seemingly independently – which is not surprising, since the simplest basis for morality, apart from God, is that if I want to have my independence and self-value to be respected, the best course is to respect that of others. Unfortunately some who have greater strength or power than others will take that to mean they have more value, and base their morality on that.

One of my biology professors made the point that eugenics, in the long run, is like demanding that the losing hand in a game of cards be thrown away: it ignores the fact that a losing hand may nevertheless contain cars that could lead to a winning hand in the future.

Trump’s administration is already set to do that by crippling the authority and implementation of the Americans With Disabilities Act, with at least one official arguing that it would be good for the country to round up everyone judged disabled and put them in camps.

Sort of; the laws as they stand match reasonably well with the thoughts of early Christians who put the appearance of the soul (“personhood”) at “quickening”. I can tolerate existing law on that basis, though I would prefer to set the beginning of a human life at implantation, which makes good biological sense and which arguably represents the unborn’s joining of a human society by the link with the mother.

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