YEC, ID and other sidebars

You don’t see anything because you can’t be bothered to look.

As a result, you say things that not only aren’t true, but for which you’ve already been provided counter-examples. Things like this:

Since you don’t bother to read what ‘evolutionists’ publish, you don’t have the faintest idea what they have or have not worked out. You’re just wallowing in self-inflicted ignorance and projecting that onto others.

Explaining your view of the evolutionary process is not my work.

If you’ve already written it, just post a link.

Though given your track record I doubt you’d be able to find it even if it did exist.

Already done upthread. You rejected it without any substantial response, let alone any effectual criticism.

Nor did I use the word “mutations” - so you’re objecting to something I didn’t write.

Empty blather expected in 5… 4… 3…

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The theory of evolution makes specific predictions. When observations match those predictions, why isn’t that evidence for the theory? This is how all of science works.

We work that out by constructing hypotheses and testing them against empirical observations, otherwise known as the scientific method.

What does this even mean?

Natural selection does change things. It changes the frequencies of alleles within populations.

Then you don’t know what speciation is. Speciation increases biodiversity above the level of species, and it creates divergence between species.

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Speaking of mutations, just ran across a very recent paper that measured the mutation rate in a single family across 4 generations. From what I can see, the inclusion of long reads allows for better reconstruction of repeat regions that are not easily done with short read sequencing. This allowed them to better measure the mutation rate in repetitive v. non-repetitive compared to the earlier studies I am aware of.

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Precisely

That is the whole point.

Last time i looked cut and paste or quoting whole papers was considered cheating within the writing of science.

Al i get from you is this paper or that. Chunks from this web site or that. even the graph of the scientific method is taken from somewhere.

You have never shown e that yo truy understand even the stuff you specialise in. And as for the Evolutionary process?

Never mind. I am not your examiner, so you have nothing to worry bout.

Richard

:sunglasses:

When you have something valid to say I will respond. For now…(Banned expression)

Richard

You’re back to arguing that even though bricks can be mortared together it isn’t possible to build a structure out of bricks.
If you set some bricks together, you just have some joined bricks. Add enough bricks, and you can get a wall. Add other bricks and you can get arches. Add more and you can have windows. Add yet others and you can have stairs. Add still others and you can get domes. Eventually you can have entire buildings, just from adding one brick at a time.

Why should you? When how mutations work, how they happen and how they generate new information, gets explained, you just claim it isn’t sufficient.

The entire process has been laid out for you. It has been shown that mathematically it is not merely possible but probable. All your replies boil down to “That;s not good enough” or “It doesn’t make sense”.

That describes anthropology, chemistry, cosmology, geology, glaciology, meteorology, oceanography, physics, volcanology . . . .
so people reasonably conclude that either you (1) don’t understand science or (2) don’t accept the scientific method.

Except to Richard, who seems to think that somehow biology is making bricks without straw.

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That’s wild!

It’s standard pedagogy, which given that people are trying to convey things of which you are plainly ignorant, is entirely suitable.

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It’s like trying to have a conversation with a random number generator.

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Whoa – that’s the first time I’ve seen a post disappear while I was reading it!

Still trying to teach me?

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity

You do not understand my questions. How can you possibly teach the answers?

Richard

Why did you call mutations “brilliant and ignorant”?

It’s completely normal for scientists to send each other abstracts from articles they are interested in.

What do you want to discuss?

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As I learned in my early computer science classes… “garbage in… garbage out…”

:wink:

As an example, I have yet to see a better explanation for the observed nested hierarchy other than common ancestry and evolution. Can you name a better explanation?

Although I don’t like AI responses myself, that response was dead on. Scientists accept the theory of evolution because it explains so much of biology so well.

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No scientists accept ToE because they need an answer that is natural.

Richard

I assume there’s supposed to be a comma after the “No”.

In which case, that is just an astoundingly uninformed opinion.

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Richard, you are not only using your own definition of ToE, you are assuming that everyone else is defining it the way you do. Evolution by natural selection is a very good physical description of the normal process of creating new kinds of organisms. But that in no way implies that God is any less involved than in any other natural process.

Biochemical similarities do point to common descent of all organisms on earth. Theologically, the idea that God had to intervene miraculously in the process of creating organisms, rather than working through ordinary means, is problematic. Two of Jesus’ temptations were using miracles unnecessarily.

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\yes, well, as no one here cares to define it properly what else can I use?

Oh yes? You got that nugget from where?

You went back and watched it happen perhaps?

Et tu Brutus?

I know, it is a scientific theory so that makes it the sae as any other scientific theory.

It’s called rigid thinking.

Only to scientists.

:rofl:

What a shallow understanding.

Richard

You are not listening well, and it does your credibility no good. If you want to define something your way, as long as you provide your definition, others can tell what you mean. But if someone else explicitly says that they are not defining things the same way as you, assuming that they are using your definition is not helpful to understanding.

A standard definition of biological evolution is change in gene frequencies over time in a population. Over time, these changes can lead to significant differences, recognized as new kinds. I have not personally been involved in one of the many studies that observed evolution happening over time. But I have collected fossils of varied ages in a dozen countries and have organized a major museum collection of fossils, in addition to visiting many other museums. I have extracted and sequenced DNA from a wide variety of organisms; I am waiting for an email from the sequencing lab right now. I see countless examples that fit the patterns expected under a model of evolution by natural selection. While not watching it happen, I am effectively looking at snapshots from various times and connecting them together.

Of course, we have no tardis to enable us to directly watch any past event. But that is not a good excuse to disregard the evidence that we have. It’s a particularly bad argument for Christians, as Christianity rests on the reliability of historical evidence relating to the work of Jesus. Also, it is bad as an argument for anything. If we can’t know anything about the past, we can’t know if any idea about it is right or wrong. Claiming that you can’t prove your idea, therefore my idea must be true is a bad argument common in young-earth claims. (No, you are not arguing for a young earth, but you are making use of some of their flawed argument approaches, and others do argue for it.)

I and several others on this forum have consistently asserted that God is fully involved in and controlling all “natural” processes. You favor a greater role for free will. Very well, I do not think we are predestined to solve that difference here. But biological evolution itself is nothing more or less than a scientific model. In that, it is no different from any other theory, and your denying that does not make it false. Where it is different is that many people try claiming that evolution supports their position on unrelated issues such as determinism versus free will or atheism or deism or theism or finding excuses for unethical behavior or bad economic and social policy. All the scientific theory of evolution tells us is that having particular DNA sequences or behaviors tends to increase or decrease the chances of passing on those sequences or behaviors to the next generation. Whether this is good or bad is a question beyond the capacity of science. One can easily put deterministic or free will spins on it, as one prefers. Evolution is nothing more than a pattern in the physical working of the world, but it is nothing less than a well-tested and strongly supported pattern.

One can, like Denton, take this as evidence of design behind the laws of nature to create a system that works so well to produce a changing diversity of organisms over time. Biblically, one can see this as an example of God’s wisdom and power and creativity. But the science itself is focused too small to see that, just as analyzing the physical properties of the electrons in the circuits that you are using to receive this message will not help you to understand the message.

Both “turn these stones to bread” and “jump off the temple” appealed for a miraculous shortcut rather than the work of doing things the normal way. Of course, that does not exhaust the nature of the temptations, but it is a component. More broadly, the use of miracles is quite restricted. The number of cases where God works some other way than using ordinary “laws of nature” is quite small compared to what does follow those laws, whether we look at the biblical record, other historical data, or our own experience. The Bible does not say why, but the contrast is quite obvious compared to something like legends about early saints, some of the apocryphal writings, or popular fiction like Harry Potter. Biblical miracles seem to generally restrict the non-natural component to the minimum to achieve the purpose. A wind parted the sea of reeds - at just the right time, for the right length of time, and Moses got an inside tip about it coming. The axe head floated long enough to be grabbed and fastened back on better. Water was turned to wine but had to be served in the ordinary manner. Thousands were fed and the leftovers were carefully saved. Jesus walked on the water, a rather slow and challenging effort with waves going up and down. Divine intervention gets Philip talking to the Ethiopian and Peter to Cornelius. Paul criticizes those demanding further signs. Demanding that God provide miraculously while neglecting to use the means that we have available to us is putting God to the test, not showing faith. Thus, there is a strong pattern of not using miracles. The Bible does not say why God choses not to use miracles more, but it is a consistent pattern.

Likewise, the miracles have a specific purpose of pointing to God, hence the terminology of “signs”. As the ID movement admits when trying to market itself as purely scientific, finding some sort of gap in evolution would not tell us if it were done by God or Zeus or high-tech space aliens or what. Given that God is smart enough and powerful enough to figure out how to use evolutionary pattens to the extent that He wants to, the best way to determine how much He used such patterns is to look at the available evidence.

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A simplistic explanation, that is woefully inadequate

I guess you can just grow a leg, or a wing or a heart if you find the right combination?

You have a fraction of the information you need.

Whoa.

Scripture is based more on observation that ToE. The witnesses were there, in person. It was neither hearsay or corroborative.

Yah yeah, God set it in motion. Light the blue touchpaper and retire immediately. Might is Right. Only the strong survive, Trample the weak or the unready. Yeah, that really sounds like God’s work!

The scientific method is not the perfect tool that it is being portrayed as.

It is speculation. It is not fact. Strongly supported by what? or whom? There is nowhere near enough evidence to be so sure.

Even I don’t criticise Scripture in this manner!

If you want to disbelieve supernatural, then do so, but don’t expect me to. I know different I have seen different. (Is that Scientific method enough?)

Richard

Well, I’m sure this has been discussed ad nauseam on this site, so I doubt it is worth re-hashing now… but AI answers are going to be shaped by their sources of course.

as for a better explanation, I’m partial to intelligent design myself, as it acknowledges a place for common ancestry and evolution, while critiquing the blind Darwinian mechanism as being incapable of achieving the levels of precision and perfection of design that we observe in biology.

Perhaps, but it still can’t be denied that many scientists are inclined to accept the theory of evolution as it is the only option that fits within their world view. Dawkins famously observed that “Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist,” as the theory is the only one that fits within an atheistic worldview.

This doesn’t speak to whether the theory is or is not true or false, of course, but it does caution that many scientists do have a vested interest in that theory being true, and a similar prejudice against openly considering the claims of intelligent design or any other such divine intervention.

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