I am sorry but I can personally witness to the contrary.
Richard
That negates the necessity for the weekly sermon then…
I think it outrageous to even consider that God should shut His mouth and not communicate other than through Scripture. John says that the whole world could not contain the books needed to record all that Christ did and you claim that all of God is contained in 1250 pages or so?
God is neither dumb nor silent. Perhaps we need to understand how He is now speaking?
Richard
I really do enjoy this convo. I enjoy debating this topic as well. It’s a topic I’ve had to debate over a hundred times with people before baptizing them into christ.
In the gospels it was not required of others to believe in them to see them. That’s not true. The reason why so many believed was because of miracles.
Again, I laid out scripturally why it has ceased. This is not related to science or personal feelings. Scripture lays out what the gifts are, how the church was jumpstarted and about the laying on of the apostles hands.
It’s really clearly lined out in acts 8. Philip the evangelist could preform miracles and baptized the repented believers into a Christ. But though they are saved, Philip could not lay his hands on others to pass the power. So a few apostles showed up. The Ex magician Simon who was called the Power, tried to buy to ability to lay hands fans pass the gifts from the apostles. Work through your doctrines and see how it confronts all of these issues. When the apostles died, the ability to lay hands ceased, and with time those alive who had the gifts from laying on of hands by the apostles.
It does not negate the purpose of the sermon though. The word is still very important.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Acts 17:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
Scripture is still completely relevant and so is preaching and studying it. However, scripture is complete. There are no new books to be created by man and added to the Bible.
Actually… I agree with this… sort of.
But the key phrase here is “to mankind.”
So I do not agree with the interpretation of this which basically comes down to …
God no longer speaks to anybody except through me and my book and my interpretation of it. God no longer answers people’s prayers except in the ways that I give approval for.
But I do think that the Bible is the only authority God has put into our hands for Christianity. He certainly can speak to people, but it has no authority in Christianity as a message to all mankind.
You might notice that I keep saying “Christianity.” I refuse to dictate that God cannot act outside Christianity as if God were the personal property of Christians. I choose Christianity as the way that God has spoken to me, but I am not so foolish as to think this gives me any kind of means to dictate what God can or cannot do.
God can definitely do whatever he wants. However, if the Bible is true, then we know that there are certain things about God we can trust and one of those is that he gave us his word in a way that can be broken down and learned. We can develop doctrine from his word and that doctrine works systematically. We know God will not reveal something through scripture but do something else.
The kindest thing I can say is that I find your confidence that you can use the Bible as a halter and muzzle on God to be quite astounding.
But frankly, the result can only be a pretend god enslaved to human theology which is far too pathetic to be worthy of my regard. This is exactly the sort of theology that I have vowed to eradicate from Christianity as an obvious creation of those who use religion as a tool of power.
Obviously I am a Christian because I do not believe that the Bible restricts what God can and cannot do in any way. I believe it tells the story of God relationship with the Israelites, but that hardly means that God had no relationship with any other people – as if God was only their tribal deity. And yes I believe that Jesus is God made man come among us to restore our relationship to Him. But that hardly means that God has done nothing else among other people to help them in other ways. Does this mean I believe in many ways to God? No. I believe in no ways to God, because that is what Jesus and Paul taught. “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Only God can save us and no He doesn’t hand this power and responsibility to sinful men so they can do it for Him.
As a Christian I don’t believe that God is muzzled by the Bible. But as a Christian, knowing god directed the Bible to tell his story, I know it mentions aspects of his character and what he did. Scripture did not dictate God. God dictated scripture. God states three paths that lead to spending a eternity with him.
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In acts 2 we read about peter proclaiming the gospel to unbelieving jews at Pentecost. 3000 Jewish men and women that day heard the gospel and was cut to heart. The was convicted and believed it. They then asked (v37-38) what should they do. Peter responded repent and be baptized in the name of god for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit. That was the “indwelling”. The same thing happened in acts 8. They believed, repented, and was baptized into Christ. Then Philip sent for the apostles and they came down and gave the power of the spirit to the new believers.
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If you have never heard of God then you will be judged by your own heart and convictions. Lots of doctrine goes into this. The law was written on everyone’s heart. That why you see the same goodness in tribes that have not ever heard it.
Romans 2:12-16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [h]the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
- Those who have not yet sinned. The concept of original sin is not biblical. We are not born little sinners. We are not guilty of other people’s sin. Sin is a choice. Those who die before they are able to choose sin and understand the full weight of it (kids) go to heaven.
Isaiah 7:15-16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. 16 For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.
Again, we know that doctrine can be trusted because God wanted us to be bereans and study the word to see if what we are taught is true. If it was so ambiguous that it could mean anything all the time it would be worthless. God is not a slave to scripture. God is scripture. The word became flesh. The word was god and was with god. Scripture was dictated by God, not the other way around.
You act like by saying the best kindness you can do is be baffled implying something more blunt you could say. Try this. Make your feelings match up with scripture and show me wrong otherwise that’s all it is. Feelings. Your feelings don’t outweigh scripture. Neither do mine. But if you’re feelings interpret what’s lined out in scripture and does not match it then whose wrong? You are the word? If the Bible says God does this or did that and you disagree because of Gods omnipotence then you perhaps misunderstand choice vs power.
Scripture does draw lines in the sand. Some lines may be ambiguous, and some lines may be metaphorically inclined meant to bring something vast down to a human perspective , but it’s all lines.
Many people try to eradicate the gospel. The New Testament is full of that. From false prophets preaching ear scratching messages, to things that are hard to be understood and are distorted, to even us being warned that even if a angel proclaims another gospel to not listen. Gods character, choices, truth, and righteousness is brought to light in scripture. Doctrine can either be built on truth or on lies. We use scripture as a filter. That’s why I previously showed what scripture is used for and why we should examine it.
To insist on the accuracy of Scripture (or at least your view of it) over reality is the height of folly.
Miracles still happen. I know this for a fact. So your view of Scripture must be flawed.
Richard
Then answer all of the issues I brought up. Each one and provide a alternative and scripturally sound answer. If we all agree a God is real and the Bible is this word then prove it with scripture through counter arguments.
After all for thousands of years many people have all experienced past lives and remember them and are reincarnated. I still say that’s not true despite anecdotal evidence and random tests. Why? Scripture refuted it. Same with the idea you’re claiming.
???
Reality. Does that not mean anything?
If Scripture is saying something to you that is not matched by reality then it is you, not Scripture that is at fault. I am not here to rewrite Scripture , and I am certainly not going to argue Scripture against Scripture! But I can tell you that Miracles happen. The Holy Spirit is still active (as is God). So if you think Scripture denies this then it is you and not Scripture that is at fault.
Richard
Then I’ll take it as this. I won’t waste my time arguing scripture against your opinion. If you ever feel that you can counter my points using scripture on doctrine I’m game. Outside of that it’s just your opinion against scripture. It’s your opinion against reality. Get any of these supposed miracle workers and send them to a cancer hospital or have them go school to school and heal everyone like the apostles did. They can’t. They can’t resurrect the dead, the can’t heal a hospital full of sick people on the spot. Scripture taught it would cease and why.
The reason nobody is responding to this is because what you have presented doesn’t make any sense. You keep quoting things in the Bible that have nothing to do with the claim you are making and keep saying this proves it. But that cannot change the fact that what you quoted doesn’t say anything like what you are claiming.
If you want a similar response, here is a random passage followed by a claim that this proves I am right.
Exodus 19:1 On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone forth out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai.
So this proves that God does miracles today.
Everything I wrote covered exactly what I was saying. It outlines a few key things that many people no longer study out.
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The differences between the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is received in baptism vs the power of the holt spirit given by the laying of the apostles hands.
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The three times, and only three times, in the New Testament fulfilling the prophecy of the gospel reaching Jerusalem, Samaria, and the ends of the earth Gentiles. ( Acts 2, 8, and 10).
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The purpose of the gifts and apostles.
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The purpose of scripture and what the Bible teaches within itself own words what happens once the entire truth that God is going to divinely reveal to mankind through prophets to guide the entire church.
Every verse is tied to those facts.
Maybe we can just examine these two sections and you both can tell me what does it mean.
- How did Peter say they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? Was it a promise to everyone?
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Was the Philip that headed to Samaria the evangelist or the apostle and how do we know?
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Did they believe and get baptized obtaining the promise made in acts 2?
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Why did the Apostles send some of their own to Samaria ?
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What did Simon see happen by the hands of apostles?
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If the Holy Spirit given by the laying on of the apostles hands was the same thing as promised in baptism then why did they not get it at baptism?
Now show me how your verses that you posted about the full moon is relevant to the discussion? Let’s see if my verses actually align with the topic?
Hebrews 6:1-3 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Peril of Falling Away
6 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits.
Even Paul had to cover the elementary teachings of baptism and the laying of hands. Many don’t understand it. It’s elementary, in the sense, it’s necessary to understand those basic subjects in order to understand how scripture fits together systematically.
For your consideration:
How does this Biblical event fit into the larger discussion?
To me those verses help confirm that when mocked and magic was still part of the world that multiple people who were good and evil was able to have access to it. That at one time, men and women were able to do it. Even one woman was able to summon a ghost and was worried once she realized who asked her to do it because it was called sin.
That is just ridiculous and shows a complete lack of understanding about God and miracles. I have “performed” at least 2 recognisable miracles myself but, as it is not me but God that does the work, I cannot just reproduce them at will. I just happened to be the vessel of the moment.
I have also witnessed several other miracles including the Healing of a serious and infectious disease let alone congenital or other defects that have suddenly disappeared. And as for tongues… It is prolific.
It would seem that your “knowledge” of Scripture has not passed the theoretical stage. And your understanding is simplistic at best.
As for “needing” a citation as proof… that is a complete misunderstanding of Scripture as a whole. Scripture is not a book of “Proofs” nor citations, nor an encyclopaedia of God.
Richard
The passages where the Bible and Jesus say that God answers prayers are quite numerous.
James 1:5, 1 Kings 3:5, Job 22:27, Jeremiah 29:12, Job 33:26, Psalm 91:15, Psalm 145:18, Psalm 65:2, Jeremiah 36:7, Zechariah 13:9, Matthew 7:11, John 14:13, John 14:14, John 15:16, John 16:23
And are there limits on these requests?
Matthew 17:20 And He said to them, “Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it shall move; and nothing shall be impossible to you.
Doesn’t sound like much restrictions on that to me.
BUT…
I don’t believe that God EVER broke or contradicted the laws of nature by which He made the world to work. That doesn’t make any sense to me. He made the laws of nature for a reason, and I don’t think He is going to break them, especially not just to impress a bunch of ignorant savages who don’t understand the laws of nature in the first place.
You believe there was magic in the past and not now, while I don’t believe there was ever any magic to begin with. I just believe there is an irreducibly subjective aspect to reality which is somewhat effected by what we want and believe, which is not the same thing at all. In other words we experience reality differently. Back then people saw supernatural events caused by God, animating spirits, disease causing demons, and works of magic everywhere. Today most of us see miracles of God and science which are somewhat confined to the context of a vast universe governed by laws of nature, and magic only in magic shows by very clever magicians for entertainment only. But the only thing which has changed is us and how we understand the world.
So can faith move mountains?
Yes, exactly the same today as ever.
By magic and supernatural powers? I don’t think so.
By unexplained events and coincidences not precluded by the laws of nature? Yep.
Raising from the dead?
Perhaps you would care to offer a definition of “miracle”? Certainly the two I am certain I was involved in defied all known “laws” of nature and / or Physics.
Richard