Why would God use evolution if it results in flawed beings?

Natural selection is a natural process. It is not independent of nature, but it is not dependent on nature either. The way it works is based on the way it is designed to work, and there is only one way to determine how it is designed to work and that is by observation.

Natural selection is determined by ecology, which is in turn determined by all the natural laws which shape our universe, which was designed by the Creator.

We do not live in a dualistic, two-tiered world. Unguided means unguided. Since the physical cannot think, the physical cannot guide. God guides, but God does so indirectly.

God really is not determined by philosophy and teleology. God is interested in Creation through the Logos. Darwin discovered that Nature/God used the ecology to shape and direct evolution via natural selection.

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Hi Roger, I think there has been a misunderstanding here.

Sure, God isn’t determined by teleology or philosophy. Yet, as you’ll see from the quote your posted, I wasn’t talking about God but about Natural Selection. In my understanding, Natural Selection has no scientifically identifiable ‘thing’ guiding it. Ecology, nature, genetics, etc. might all influence natural selection but they are not guiding it through intentional agency and/or towards a predetermined goal.

So if there is something guiding natural selection in an intentional way it must be something outside of the natural and thus undetectable by scientific methods. Or put it another way, if God is guiding natural selection (and I believe he is) then he is doing so in away that science cannot detect or determine.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

To be honest, I think for once, we might actually be agreeing with each other, Roger! :wink: Albeit we are coming at this from different starting points. If so, I wonder how we can build on this common ground to increase are mutual understanding?

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I would like to make a few comments on the video at the top of this forum topic. The question is: Why would God use evolution if it results in flawed beings?. While I don’t know why God used evolution to make humans, if we take as a starting point that he did, I would like to offer a few points of view on some of the matters raised in the video even though I am not an expert on human anatomy or human evolution.

Firstly, I think that it is easy to make generalizations on what parts of the body seem to be flawed without an in-depth analysis of whether these things are actually flawed in the overall context of the human body and its evolution. It seems to me that the term flawed is being used in relation to a hypothetical ideal that might not be able to be realized in the context of how God made things. Also, to look at a “flaw” in isolation from the rest of the body and from what is possible through the evolutionary process is to my mind inappropriate, especially if a “design” to replace the “flawed” organ is not presented that is shown to be possible evolutionarily and to be more beneficial in the context of the whole body.

The octopus eye is not an outgrowth of the brain as is the vertebrate eye, but rather an invagination of the body surface. It seems to me that the vertebrate eye is a brilliant organ for what it can do. Could the octopus-type eye have developed in an efficient manner in humans (and other vertebrates), considering the origin of the vertebrate eye, the rigid nature of the head, the need for the eye to sit outside the bony skull yet still be protected to a certain extent by it without compressing the retinal nerves, etc.? I don’t know the answer, but if it couldn’t, why say that the eye is flawed? Senescence and death are “programmed” into human cells, so there will be changes in the eye with age, as in other organs of the body. The same thing can be said of the human sinuses. Where would they be situated otherwise whilst retaining their necessary functions (as mentioned in the video) and efficiency of function (being near the nose), considering the advantages of a flat face for vision, the need for space for a relatively large brain, the efficiency of a relatively compact head for support reasons, etc.?

Regarding the epiglottis, I think that is an excellent solution for human speech, taste, breathing, etc. These use both the mouth and nasal cavity. For example, taste (when including flavours) requires both, owing to the innervation by the two cranial nerves involved. Humans have chewing teeth and hands to cut or break food, and so don’t need to swallow large items of food. Some birds and reptiles that swallow relatively large food items whole (not having teeth or chewing teeth) will need to have a means of breathing while they feed or else they would die, and such a feeding system would be selected against by natural selection. Birds and reptiles don’t have speech like humans, and speech is incredibly important for humans. I don’t think that the design of the human throat is flawed after all.

Regarding the anterior cruciate ligament, I would think that the vast majority of people in the world have not torn or ruptured theirs, and so the ACL doesn’t require a good blood supply to it. The ligament needs to be tough for the stability of the knee, and the ligament does a good job under “normal” circumstances (e.g. walking, running). Sure, overstressing knee joints in high impact or extreme sports can lead to rupture or tearing of the ACL, but that is not the context in which the human knee developed. Similarly for the Achilles tendon. It plays a very significant role in the efficiency of human locomotion (walking, running, jumping) and provides for both elasticity and shock-absorbance in the foot. It’s really an amazing part of the human body, and to my mind is not flawed at all. What more efficient mechanism would replace it?

If natural selection has so operated that humans have lost the ability to synthesize certain essential macronutrients, shouldn’t there have been some advantage to that loss, or at least shouldn’t the loss be neutral in evolutionary terms? Otherwise, one would have expected that if the loss would have been disadvantageous, the individuals carrying the genetic defects would have been selected against. So it would seem to me that the loss of the ability to synthesize vitamin C etc. was not disadvantageous. But might there evolutionary advantages for human nutrition and the human body to have to obtain certain macronutrients from the diet? Has research been done to answer this question? If not, can we really say that this loss of the ability to synthesize various compounds is a flaw? (Theologically, we think of the enjoyment of food (including food such as vegetables and fruit) as a gift of God).

Similar arguments can be made for the other parts of the body mentioned in the video. I am inclined to be unwilling to call something in the human body a flaw unless the term flaw is clearly defined and the context in which the term is used is clearly stated.

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Thank you for your comments. The reason why I said what I said is because it6is clear to me that the statement that

It all comes down to this, God is rational, and nature/science is rational, [which is why I can say that God created nature/the universe.] Therefore, if God guides natural selection in a rational way, then it should be scientifically detectable.

The “down-side” of this is that some will say that this opens up God to rational scrutiny. I really do not think that this is a serious problem, however it still means that the existence of God cannot be proven beyond a shadow of doubt because fools can always find “reasons” to question.

Nature would seem to be the agency which guides “natural” selection, and that seems to be the assumption that believers and non-believers make, but Nature has no intentional agency outside of that of its Creator, which is the reason I call it God guided, not nature guided.

Genetics also plays a role in evolution, but only indirectly in selection. Thus, genetics does not guide.

That leaves ecology, which is really a very broad range of influences on evolution. It is my view that since ecology influences, that is, guides natural selection, and natural selection guides evolution, then ecology guides evolution. A longer stretch maybe saying that the God Who created the physical universe out of nothing uses the physical universe to create the biological universe including us.

Jesus mixed His metaphors rather often. John 3:8 (NIV2011)
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

The observation Jesus is making is that we cannot see the wind, just as we cannot see the Spirit, but we see the effects of the wind and we see the effects of the Spirit, so we know that both are real.

Darwin determined that evolution was achieved by a combination of random chance (variation) and guidance (natural selection.) That is what his science says. Scientists today do not accept this.

Good observations, and to me it would be more a “sub-optimal” design rather than a flaw, if I were an ID sort of guy. Since I am more an EC guy, those things are actually more a “great use of the materials at hand.”

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The more I read about the human eye, the more I can’t accept that it is sub-optimal. From what I have read so far, and to my mind, the arrangement of the optic nerve and the resultant blind spot are not “flaws” but are necessary for the eye to be able function effectively. For example, the movement of the eye by the attachment of the ocular muscles to the sclera (which is advantageous) and the need to protect the eye and it’s components within the sclera necessitates the optic nerve arrangement as does the need to provide a rich blood supply to the retina necessitate the adjacency of the choroid to the retina. From what I have read so far, the inverted nature of the retina is vital to its functioning and is optimal for human vision. The lesson for me is not to take views such as those expressed in the video as necessarily correct, but to research such matters further to get closer to the truth

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Agree that it would be difficult to say the eye could have been better, but pretty easy to say the spine is not really a great design.

Phil, what on earth are you thinking? You must have back problems.

@AdrianA , your comments are well taken, however I think that most people when they say that people are flawed are referring to the spiritual and moral, not the physical character, of other people (not themselves of course.)

Of course, God did not make us flawed. That is on us, but we can be flawed, and we are flawed, and it is much easier to blame God than to take responsibility for ourselves.

The basic “flaw” of humanity is that we are finite, we are mortal, we die. Life is a gift, but it does not last forever. We accept it with gratitude and make the most of it in love, or blame God because God did not give us what we think we want.

Actually, I do have a backache today. But a huge percentage of people have back problems as the spine was just not designed for upright posture, and has a failure rate that is huge.
Of course, we are all flawed in many different ways. Being a good creation is not being a perfect creation.

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Not in breeders. And it’s not designed by anything of course, apart from selection pressures.

It took me a minute there. Memory also tends to deteriorate along with the discs once culled from the breeding stock.

One important thing to remember about evolution is that it’s a contingent process. It totally depends on what already exists. It can only shape things that are already there. If elephants are driven to extinction by man, there will be no further elephant evolution. So if God is guiding evolution, is he guiding man to drive species to extinction?

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Yes, we are their provision for that.

sOhhhh, if God isn’t using evolution, as He can only do perfect things, what is He doing? And did He incarnate? Perfectly in a perfectly imperfect man?

The cephalopod eye has a forward facing retina and they get along just fine with that arrangement. As this all relates to evolution, the arguments around the design of the vertebrate eye is really more about how designs stay within phylogenetic branches. Other than evolution from a common ancestor, there is no reason why all vertebrates should have an inverted retina while cephalopods have a forward facing retina with the optical nerve exiting straight out the back.

At this stage the evidence points that way. Paradigms shift with more and more research, so who knows what the consensus would be in a hundred years from now? To me, looking only at the physical evidence, natural selection seems creative. I can only marvel at how the body of a tiny insect as well as that of a human functions, with the myriad biochemical, neurological, mechanical and other process that are happening simultaneously and usually harmoniously. How so many things are so very well adapted to their environments. How the many and various life forms interact together and with the environment to maintain a kind of order on earth. And so on. This makes me think that there is more to life that meets the eye.

Phil, I wonder whether many of the back problems that we experience are not mainly a result of the modern life style? The freeing of the arms and hands from being weight-bearing has resulted in the ability of humans to do many tasks which wouldn’t be possible otherwise and which don’t result in damage to the spine. The spine and back interact with the rest of the body to do a wide variety of tasks, and trained athletes can lift more than their bodyweight, a not shabby feat amongst mammals! The upright stance and freed arms has enabled us to have a very efficient mode of locomotion (humans can walk and run for many hours at a time, again not a shabby feat amongst mammals). And so on. How could the spine be better, considering what beaglelady wrote above about contingency?

The most problematic area of the spine seems to be the lower lumbar discs, as with age, trauma, or overstress, they flatten, rupture and put pressure on nerves. No doubt modern life makes it worse with weight issues, but skinny fit people have problems also. The other thing about modern life which was alluded to is that we live longer, and things wear out that used to last a shorter lifetime. I think the a more robust lumber region would hold up better to biped life, but, we have to make do with what we got.

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One of the things that amazes me is how different solutions to the same problem evolve in different lineages. One striking example is the different solutions for flight in birds and bats.

However, I don’t know of any species that is perfectly adapted to their environment. There are many that are well adapted, but none that are perfect. I also don’t see the same amount of order that you seem to see. Populations, species, and environments are constantly changing. As an example, the end of the last ice age saw a lot of changes in North America. We used to have horses, rhinos, mammoths, and giant sloths, but they all went extinct by modern times.

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I am writing this on my phone, so it won’t be comprehensive with supporting information…
I find it interesting that one of the responses on this thread stated that individual has no faith.
In reading dozens of posts here, I have not once seen the plan of salvation or the gospel included!
Does anyone here believe in the gospel? Does anyone actually know what it really means?
The Bible clearly states…through one man sin came into this world and as a result of the sin of that one man, all have sinned AND fall short of the glory of God!
Now the gospel is that Jesus died for our sins so we can return to the perfection and relationship we had with our creator before we sinned! The Bible clearly states, that in heaven (and on the new earth) he will wipe away every tear and there will be no more sorrow and suffering…there will be no more death!
These are irrefutable Bible truths…you cannot be a Christian and explain the fundamental truths away…to do so is to deny Christ, period! There are no if’s or buts or maybes about this Bible fact!
One must look at ALL of the foundation questions about our existence…where did we come from, why are we hear, AND where are we going (what is our future…what is the end game)?
We are told we are to keep our eye on the prize…the prize is not evolution, it is not science, the prize is eternal life! Anyone who claims death existed before sin ignores the entire theme of the Bible…God restores us…evolution and natural selection are not perfect…they are a deeply flawed consequence of sin!

The end game is, and I suggest people read Daniel chapter 2 because that gives us a very specific order of events from his time in history to the second coming…

There is no death in ETERNAL LIFE!

A species that is perfectly adapted to its environment would not really be a good thing, since environments are always changing. As it is, over 99% of species that have ever lived have gone extinct.

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