Actually I remembered after writing that, that there was a time when it changed hands for some kind of payment early in its known history. Ironically there was essentially an invoice for it, which stated that it was not the authentic burial cloth of Jesus. It’s actually sometimes used as evidence that it must have been forged, although, again, no one has ever found an explanation for HOW an artist would have even made it, or who this talented forger would have been. See #3 on this article:
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- The heathen who know about the Shroud (theists, agnostics, and atheists alike) don’t require much convincing to reject the notion that the Shroud is an “photograph” of a dead man, much less of the crucified Jesus of Nazareth.
- Personally, I think Christian nay-sayers and doubters are not convinced because they just can’t figure out how lead can be transformed into gold or how water could have been transformed into wine or they shy away from viewing objects as worthy of anything more than temporary and passing curiosity.
- To be seriously interested, I think one first has to believe that the transformation involved was possible, then that it is reproducible. The problem there is that, even if one allows for the possibility of the transformation process, one is left with the dissatisfaction that comes with wanting to see it repeated, again and again and again. Personally, I believe the transformation process was possible, and am content to wait to see it done again and again and again. Meanwhile, it’s enough for me to believe that it occurred once, almost 2,000 years ago.
By the way, you didn’t ask, but here’s Ian Wilson’s “chain of evidence” (i.e. documented chronology of known events involving the Shroud of Turin).
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Something more like this: 
But who knows.It is just that the thin long face with too-well defined hair and features on the shroud seems pretty unlikely. Of course, it is immaterial either way.
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I don’t think this is even necessarily true. As I pointed out above, one can be completely convinced in the authenticity of the Shroud (as the burial cloth of the historical Jesus) and still believe that there is a natural explanation yet to be found for the image creation and be curious in solving that riddle. Just because the idea of it being a medieval forgery is highly unlikely, doesn’t necessarily mean it therefore must be miraculous. I personally try to leave any biases at the door when reading any article or book on the Shroud, whether in favor, or against, its authenticity, and judge it solely on its scientific merit… but of course we all come to the table with those and will tend to view the same data through the lens of our pre-existing beliefs. There have certainly been a lot of theories on both sides, that were quite silly and quickly fell apart on scientific scrutiny.
I’d agree that’s the most likely way a Palestinian Jew of that time would have looked. In terms of the “thin long face” it’s important to note that the Shroud image is not a painting (this we know past any doubt) and it no longer is believed to be a photographic image by most scientists either, as it’s lacking so many typical elements a photo would have. The 3D encoding and the most prevailing theory that the image is the result of darkening of the soap layer on the fabric as a result of a Malliard reaction indicates a rather unique image that is not typical for portraits at all, something more comparable to a topographical map… which would explain why some features do appear a bit distorted and out of proportion, compared to a comparable photo.
Perhaps not. I’m seriously interested, am completely convinced of the authenticity of the Shroud, believe that there is a natural explanation for the image’s creation, but I inherited–from an agnostic atheist, in 2004–an natural explanation which has diminished my curiosity in solving the riddle completely. As consequence, I acknowledge the marvelous in the Cosmos, but I don’t believe God does magic tricks. The marvelous is possible and has a natural explanation and is not a “Divine magic trick”.
“You’re a better man” than I am. I just try to figure out what my biases are, and wear them whether I am able to figure them out or not.
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Indeed. There have been far too many things in the known universe that at one time seemed entirely inexplicable, yet now we understand fully. My education is primarily in the biological sciences, and I still am amazed at how we develop from a single fertilized egg… even after having studied how that happens. How that organization happens from all identical cells, to a complex organism… still seems like magic…even though at an intellectual level I know it is not.
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FOR WOULD-BE FORGERS OF THE SHROUD:
- To successfully (i.e. convincingly) produce a genuine fake version of the Shroud of Turin, you will need to use the most advanced 14th-century techniques in order to produce a shroud that enables modern-day collaborators to use 3-dimensional imaging in coming up with a 3-D image like the one shown briefly in the 3.44 minute YouTube video shown at: Shroud of Turin Used to Create 3D Copy of Jesus.
Ready to try? Go for it.
Lots of luck, folks. Can’t wait to see what you come up with.
@jpm How’s this face? … any closer to what you thought it should look like?
Reference: Giulio Fanti, professor of Mechanical and Thermal Measurement at the University of Padua, Italy. (reproduction: 2013).
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Dale, this topic is extremely difficult to address from a human perspective.
I will try to use information that I have found in the Bible that may help us gain a clue on why God would set up a system of faith.
Your statement says if God was a tangible being on the planet with all his power and glory, you would worship him and be obedient to his laws because you’d be afraid of him and be afraid of being sent to hell for being disobedient.
In the book of Ezekiel chapter 28:11-19, I believe we get a glimpse of why God set up our world with our souls being blinded to God. Note what’s written in this chapter it may shake your perspective.
Apparently the Lord told Ezekiel to write an open letter to the king of Tyre. This open letter appears to be a reflection upon what happened in heaven at some time before the world was created.
Eze 28:15-16 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
In my opinion, the Lord was surprised and found out over time what happened to this guardian cherub in whom he considered blameless.
Given that this is what happened in heaven, Would God continue to create more children? Because of free will perhaps they would turn out just as bad. I can understand from this situation why God would create this earth and place us in it.
Maybe we should ask the question, what does God get out of developing a system based on faith?
Rom 8:19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
God surprised? I don’t think so. He is outside of time (or encompassing all time, omnitemporal), not constrained by it, and omniscient. How else could there be prophecy, or Jesus say this:
That has been answered earlier in this thread: reciprocated love.
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Not to be revealed to God. That is contradicted in several places. Here is one:
Dale thank you for getting back with me.
My opinions are strange to most people. I believe Paul also recognized that many of his opinions were strange.
In first Corinthians 13:9-12 “for we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, a reason like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
My hope is like Paul’s, when I get to the other side everything will become clear.
May God Bless You
Ron
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Da Vinci used corpses, but it would be easier to just hire some beggar for the price of a few drinks.
Somehow the original poster did not state that IF God is physically perceivable beyond any doubt that it would mean the end of the unbelievers! That is really what it boils down to. God’s absence means merciful time to repent and put our trust in him. God’s real, physical presence in all His glory will mean the ultimate judgement, the end of sinners! I’m just pointing that out as an adjunct to your statement…God bless.
That’s the real reason
Riiiiiight. I won’t prove myself and if you don’t believe in me despite that, I’ll murder you or worse. Have you read Stephen King’s Revival? We must look forward to being in The Null under the yoke of Mother and call it paradise
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The basis of Christianity is faith, not blind faith, study the bible, God’s Word to us. His wisdom reveals to us what is most beneficial and least harmful, to guide us towards a relationship with Him.
I think I know what you mean and I think you have merit. He wants to be loved for who He is, not because we are compelled to love him. The argument is made that even now we are forced to love him or we go to hell.
Love can’t be forced, period. Obedience? Sure. Fear? yep. Dread? Indeed. Love? That’s what he wants and it is a different ballgame.
Loving him develops inside of us when we know deep down that He loves us. There is no substitute. There is nothing on earth like it. Nothing close, except the love He places inside others for us. Only His Love coming to and in us can enable us to respond to him out of love.
Every commandment, every requirement, every demand, every jot and tittle in scripture, all are fulfilled through loving him and one another.
Also, I can take care of all the commands (except the love components) and miss the boat entirely. If I don’t have love, I am nothing. I could be Paul’s twin and without love, I can’t get right with God. I’m not going to heaven.
His “church” is dying for a lack of love. We can change everything. We can incorporate new, “proven” strategies to win the lost and to keep the faithful coming back. Without love, it is worth nothing. Human beings are like animals. We know when someone loves us and there isn’t enough love on planet earth to light a match. If we were to love as He loves, we would be unable to cope with all the people flooding every church building, missionary organization, children’s church, Sunday School positions, the airwaves, every outreach to prisoners.
When He made the ultimate sacrifice, a calculated, well-balanced and reasoned argument was not what He had in mind. Because it happened so long ago and it has been mentioned so many times, I forget what He is all about. He becomes an argument, a point to make, a synthesis, a figure, some guy who hung around and created a lot of headaches. Children know better. He knew better, calling himself our son. Kids know what tortuous agony is and blood and dirt and howling and streams of tears and death and misery are. They know, and it is not in keeping rules. It comes from deep within where you and I are who we are, because we love Him. We can’t help it.
Christianity is based on faith in God and His Word, the bible. Researching the bible and who and how it was written makes it the most proven book on religion. Just makes sense besides what the bible says about itself.
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No truer word was spoken. But there are green shoots.
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