Why is it that genetic similarity = common descent? Isn't that an interpretation not an observation?

Yes, unfortunately it is a stumbling block for many folks. I remember a nun from my highschool days who told us, “They lied to us. We weren’t created, we evolved”. A few years later she left her order and became a civlian. I’m sure evolution presented some kind of crisis of faith to her.

This will sound like a weak argument to some, but perhaps cooincidence has produced an illusion of evolution. For example, God created the other primates, which are very similar to humans in many respects. Is this a result of evolution, or just a cooincidence that creates an illusion of evolution?

Here is another possibly weak argument that my fragile, egg-shell mind just concocted: Perhaps God knew His creation would one day be interpreted as evolution and so He is using it as a test to see who will stick with Him and who will reject Him in favour of the great minds of science. (Qualifier: Don’t get me wrong; I don"t mean theistic evolutionists are such rejectors; I’m talking about apostates who give up on faith altogether.)

I’m not an expert on fossils, but here are some interesting quotes from people who are: -

Re Ape to Man fossils:

“All these trees of life with their branches of our ancestors, that’s a load of nonsense.” Mary Leakey, archeologist and paleo-anthropologist.

Richard C. Lewontin, Prof. of Zoology, Harvard: “Look, I’m a person who says in this book [Human Diversity, 1982], that we don’t know anything about the ancestors of the human species. All the fossils that have been dug up and are claimed to be ancestors, we haven’t the faintest idea whether they are ancestors … All you’ve got is Homo sapiens there, you’ve got that fossil there, you’ve got another fossil there … and it’s up to you to draw the lines. Because there are no lines.”

Re Methodology:

Colin Patterson: “It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another … But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test.”“I don’t think we shall ever have any access to any form of a tree (of life) that we can call factual.”

Pierre-P. Grasse: “Assuming that the Darwinian hypothesis … [paleontologists then] interpret fossil data according to it … The error in their method is obvious.”

Re Horse Fossils:

Niles Eldredge, “I admit that a lot of that has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs (in the American Museum) is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable, particularly because the people who propose these kinds of stories themselves may be aware of the speculative nature of some the stuff. But by the time it filters down to the textbooks, we’ve got science as truth and we’ve got a problem.”

George G. Simpson: “The uniform, continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature.”

Bruce McFadden, FL Museum of Natural History and U. of FL: “… over the years the fossil horses have been cited as prime example of orthogenesis [“straight-line evolution”] … it can no longer be considered a valid theory … we find that once a notion becomes part of accepted scientific knowledge, it is very difficult to modify or reject it.”

Re Lack of Transitionals:

David M. Raup (Prof. of Geology, University of Chicago): “Also there is probably some wishful thinking involved. In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general, these have not been found - yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.”

Robert Barnes (in his book, Invertebrate Beginnings): “The fossil record tells us almost nothing about the evolutionary beginnings of phyla and classes. Intermediate forms are nonexistent, undiscovered and not recognized.”

Prof. E. J. H. Corner (Botany Department of Cambridge University): “… but I still think that, to the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favour of special creation.”

David M. Raup (Prof. of Geology, University of Chicago): “Also there is probably some wishful thinking involved. In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general, these have not been found - yet the optimism has died hard and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.”

Have a blessed day Dredge, Someday all will be clear to us as pass through the veil.

A quick search pulled up a “quote mine project” page – (Quote Mine Project: "Miscellaneous"). I really don’t know how many of these quotes are addressed, but I imagine you could find more context and explanation for quite a few of them.

I don’t really know enough paleontology to be considered a novice, but my general impression is that the fossil evidence for transitional species exists, but still not to the extent that scientists of previous generations expected or hoped for. Maybe @jammycakes can add some actual knowledge.

@Dredge,

These quotes are taken out of context - - and I think you know it. And in those cases where they aren’t taken out of context, the person being quoted is taking the findings out of context.

To prove me wrong, all you have to do is explain why there are no horse fossils mixed in dinosaurs, or dinosaur fossils mixed in with horses, and why all the other large mammals follow exactly the same pattern disproving contemporary existence.

Let me know when you have something.

So if transitional fossils were all that existed, then yes you would have some point but there are loads of other evidence.

But let’s start with each of these folks and my analysis of whether they were quote mined (also see the Talk Origins link on quote mining)…

Mary Leakey - 22 publications with 621 citations (pretty good record) - she laid a lot of the foundational work for early bipedalism in the transition from walking on four limbs to two. Why would she work on this for decades if she believed we were spontaneously popped into existence? - QUOTE MINED

Richard Lewontin - 116 publications with 10,000 citations (very impressive!) - what does he actually think about evolution? Well he coauthored a paper in 2004 called ‘Teaching Evolutionary Biology.’ So yeah, to use a quote of him like that - QUOTE MINED

Colin Patterson - 35 publications with 1,288 citations (also very good) - what does he think about evolution? One of his most cited papers ‘Congruence between molecular and morphological phylogenies’ discusses how any potential gaps in morphological phylogenies have been supplemented by molecular phylogenies (i.e. molecular evidence supports fossil evidence) - QUOTE MINED

Pierre Grasse - 14 publications with 780 citations (quite good as well) - what does he think about evolution? I don’t know French but this paper kind of sums it up (L’évolution de la symbiose chez les Isoptères). - QUOTE MINED

Niles Eldredge - 48 publications with 1601 citations (if you include his books with Steven J Gould and others he’s up to 20,000 citations). Anyways, here’s a book he coauthored: https://research.amnh.org/vz/ornithology/pdfs/Eldredge%20Cracraft80.entire%20book.pdf (the goal of the book was to unit systematics, the ordering of the Earth’s biota and evolution) - QUOTE MINED

George G. Simpson - 39 publications with 277 citations (a decent career) - just read his paper titles. It is so ironic that he is quote mined when he helped establish the impressive story of the fossil record - QUOTE MINED

Bruce McFadden - 160 publications with 2,364 citations - the quote from him about straight line evolution is a good quote as straight line evolution isn’t even a real thing and it is misleading! I agree. Also, he’s written about evolution and the chemical origins of life - QUOTE MINED

David Raup - 64 publications with 4,865 citations - just look at his publications ‘Fossil preservation and stratiagraphic ranges of taxa’ (i.e. Noah’s flood wasn’t global), or the ‘Role of Extinction in Evolution’ - QUOTE MINED

Robert Barnes - 3 publications 25 citations (though his textbook is on its 5th edition) - not exactly an expert but it’s pretty obvious given his focus on invertebrates (and their beginnings) we don’t have too much on them - this was also written first in the 1950s before many many many many transitional fossils were formed - SOMEWHAT QUOTE MINED

E.J.H. Corner - One major paper called ‘The Durian Theory or the Origin of the Modern Tree’ - the quote mine is mysterious as he writes ‘but I still think that.’ I wonder what came before it. Maybe he was comparing the Durian Theory to special creation (in 1949) and you can read about it on the Wikipedia article if you like - DEFINITELY QUOTE MINED AND IRRELEVANT TO FOSSILS

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But the question with “why nested hierarchies” is not “why did God do something seemingly arbitrary that could have been done differently” The question is why would God do something deceptive? Why would he intentionally plant clues that lead people in totally the wrong direction? How does that fit with his revealed character?

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False dichotomy. There is a third option. God created using evolution and those of us who believe that are right and those that don’t are wrong. And since this is a test you know what happens to the people that fail. :wink:

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Why would we expect separately created species or “created kinds” to fall into a nested hierarchy? Please explain.

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Darwin wrote an entire chapter in “Origin of Species” explaining why we don’t see innumerable transitional fossils in the fossil record. Perhaps you should read it:

"For my part, following out Lyell’s metaphor, I look at the natural geological record, as a history of the world imperfectly kept, and written in a changing dialect; of this history we possess the last volume alone, relating only to two or three countries. Of this volume, only here and there a short chapter has been preserved; and of each page, only here and there a few lines. Each word of the slowly-changing language, in which the history is supposed to be written, being more or less different in the interrupted succession of chapters, may represent the apparently abruptly changed forms of life, entombed in our consecutive, but widely separated formations. On this view, the difficulties above discussed are greatly diminished, or even disappear. "

The reason that we don’t have innumerable transitional fossils in our collections is that the geologic record is not complete, and we have only searched a tiny, tiny fraction of that incomplete geologic record. In many, many cases there are millions of years between sedimentary beds where no sediments were laid down.

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“Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.”–Stephen Jay Gould, “Evolution as Theory and Fact”
http://wise.fau.edu/~tunick/courses/knowing/gould_fact-and-theory.html

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If you can’t explain why a deity would have to create species so that they fall into a nested hierarchy, then you can’t claim that a nested hierarchy is explained by special creation.

A nested hierarchy is the only pattern of shared derived features that evolutionary mechanisms can produce when there is a lack of any significant amount of horizontal genetic transfer. Since vertical inheritance is the dominant form of inheritance in eukaryotes, we would absolutely expect to see a nested hierarchy if complex eukaryotes evolved as the theory proposes. What do we see? A nested hierarchy. The evidence supports evolution.

This is why we say that similarities are due to common ancestry, because that is what the evidence supports.

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Resorting to the sad creationist tactic of quote mining, are you? And you clearly just cut/pasted them instead of finding the sources yourself.

Does a creation of separate kinds predict convergent nested hierarchies? Do any designed objects fit in a single nested hierarchy that is superimposable on the nested hierarchy that comes from a mathematical analysis of their components?

The key words here are single and superimposable.

Think for yourself instead of cutting and pasting, please.

Fine advice. It would be far more productive (and sincere) than cutting and pasting quote mines from creationist web sites, for certain.

…using evolution. I believe that’s a concise summary of the Biologos position.

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The stumbling block is not evolution. The stumbling block is being lied to about it.

That’s the big concern that most of us share round here. Bad arguments do not build faith: on the contrary, they undermine it. If you are trying to support the Bible — or, to put it more accurately, your interpretation of the Bible — with claims that turn out to be untrue, or misleading, or ignorant, you won’t be upholding it; on the contrary, you will be undermining it.

Evolution doesn’t necessarily mean that the Bible is false. It just means that we’ve misunderstood it. The parts of the Bible that evolution rubs up against are parts that leave a lot of things wide open to interpretation anyway.

I’m not sure why you’re citing me as a particular expert. I’m not a paleontologist myself and I don’t have any more understanding of the fossil record than anyone else round here. Other than that @Joel_Duff has a fairly comprehensive blog about that sort of thing.

Joel has some great articles. Here is another blog that addresses the fossil issue and has a lot of other neat information, some totally unrelated to evolution:

My mistake, I had somehow formulated in my head that you worked in geology and were probably much more familiar with paleontology than I.

This should be up on the home page!

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The greatest minds in creationism don’t have any explanation either. That’s why they misrepresent the evidence by calling it vague similarity instead of what it really is.