I stand by the statement as the only way to interpret scripture. In Psalm 14:1, it clearly says “There is no God”, but when you put it in context it means the opposite (I do not mean this reference to be denigrating, it was just the clearest example I know. I appreciate your gracious dialogue and intelligent discussion in this matter).
I think any reasonable person would take John 10 as evidence for the deity of Jesus. This is not inconsistent with the Father being the only true God. The Trinity is 3 in 1. This goes all the way back to Genesis 1 where the term for God, Elohim, is the plural noun (ending in yod+mem) with the singular form of the verb. The Trinity is clearly throughout the Old Testament, but it is downplayed to contrast against the polytheistic cultures surrounding the Jews.
The Trinity also explains the perceived conflict with the concept that “no one has seen God and lived” as Jacob clearly states he has seen God and lived, because he had seen “The Angel of the Lord” which is the term used for Jesus in the Old Testament Also reference Zech 3, one of my favorite chapters in the Bible where “The Angel of the Lord” takes away the sins of the high priest, Joshua, which we be the position we all will be in eventually.
I am here because I have a unique viewpoint that it is more consistent with a literal interpretation of scripture that Chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis are sequential than the commonly held belief among Christians, Moslims and Jews that the creation narrative starting in Genesis 2:5 is a retelling of the first narrative in greater detail. My view eliminates the conflict with evolution as Adam is no longer the first man. Whether I am 100% right or 100% wrong, it does not impact the clear message of all 66 books of the Bible which is:
God is only good, sin is unacceptable to God. To have fellowship with God we must be made righteous as all fall short of the glory of God.
Jesus was the “lamb without blemish” sacrificed for our sin, through accepting the free gift we can have fellowship with God.
Jesus knows the number of hairs on our heads, He feels pain when we feel pain (John 11:35). Through His sacrifice he has conquered sin and death, we can have fellowship with Him in this life and the next.
I’m vaguely familiar with Licona mainly from his debates. I don’t think he is too different from WLC or Habbermas. None of them deal with Johns (JTB) resurrection claims which I think are a strong challenge to their case.
Ie there is origin of belief in John’s resurrection that needs to be explained. Johns resurrection is being presented from a Christian or hostile source and seems to persist among the very people some of whom will testify about Jesus’ resurrection, assuming their testimony is accurately recorded.
The Jesus myth: Taking Jesus as entirely fictional is not something Scholars think. A handful of scholars believe this but most don’t.
You should make another post about John the baptist though. Explaining the argument and what you believe. I am sure there was a following of JTB who held the exact same beliefs as us Christians do with Jesus but with John instead.
1John is a wonderful book with all the essential doctrine you need to know in one short book. What John is saying is that when we accept that Jesus’ sacrifice paid the penalty for our sins and put our faith in Him, we become “sons of God” (a term used consistently throughout scripture) and become indwelt by the Holy Spirit (1John4:15). We have God inside us, but we clearly do not become gods. The Holy Spirit helps us (Jesus actually called the Holy Spirit the “helper”):
Understand His Word and understand God’s will for our lives through His Word and through prayer
Helps us try to overcome our sin nature
Convicts us of our sins
He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world (Satan).
These messages are clearly resonated throughout scripture.
We are not greater than he who is in the world, but He that dwells in us is. If we become gods, this would not be true.
We still have a sin nature and continue to fall short of the righteousness of God, if we become gods, this would not be true.
We are to serve Jesus and follow His commandments out of love for Him. Our goal is to be called “good and faithful servants”, if we become gods, this would not be true.
God chasten His sons and daughters as is best for us, just like an earthly father would do, if we become gods, this would not be true.
I see this statement as contrary to all of scripture. I see no inconsistency in the literal meaning of any text in relation to the Trinity. If there are particular verses you would like to discuss, I would be happy to do so.
Interesting. What would it do to your Christian faith if there ever turns up evidence that JtB followers believed about John what Christians believed about Jesus?
It’s not just having God inside, but about being born from Gods seed (Gr sperm)!
Earlier I included a link to early Christians interpreting the NT texts as teaching deification. I’m not sure these questions are as clear as the orthodoxy interprets them today.
Sure, but interesting that this comes in the same book that has the most straight my statements supporting Christ’s divinity… “and the word was God…”, etc.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but it’s clear that Christ never said: “I am God”, or “Father and I are part of the Trinity”, etc…
And when he was accused of blasphemy, he responded a bit cryptically too.
John 10: 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Note, if “Son of God” means Divinity, then Jesus is not alone in that.
Matt. 5:9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sonsofGod .
@Christy has a great resource on what “son of God” means in the ANE culture–we tend to literalize it way too much.
“I and the Father are One” is another way of understanding this.
I grew up in a Muslim culture, where some believed that we hold God the Father had sexual relations with Mary to make Christ–that would be pretty awful to our points of view, too.
It’s kind of a mystery-probably not quite as important to believe as we think --but more of a diagram. “Son of Man” is another meaning.
Certainly the term “son of God” does not simplistically mean divinity in itself. Thus far we are agreed. But that, mixed with his claim to have authority to forgive sins (in the face of the objection “who can forgive sins but God alone,”) his extraordinary claim that “before Abraham was, I am,” his statement that “ you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven,” his claim that he is going to return along with angels and pass judgment on al, people… and of course I could keep going.
But I wonder if we can we agree that someone who says and does such things is probably not trying to convey the idea that he is simply a mere mortal man just like the rest of us…?
But Jesus gave authority to the church to forgive sins, yes?
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
Matt 18: 15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
In John 14:12 Jesus promises the same powers to do miracles to “whosoever” believes.
And then look at John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
This just goes to show that whatever your theology is, you’re going to find problem passage (as well as supporting ones)
Well, what do you make of passages I cited? Jesus could forgive sins, but so did the disciples in John 20. And so could the church. Jesus, in John 14, also promised that whosoever believes will do the works that he did and even greater works.
Jesus could have been different from others, but even Jesus made confusing claims about John the Baptist.
Matt. 11:11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Taken literally, the above verse is Jesus saying that JtB was greater than he was, for Jesus too was born of a woman!
It just further reinforces my point, that whatever you believe about Jesus, there is a passage to contradict it. I will also grant that the passages you cited could support Jesus’ divinity.
However, and this is the kicker, the Gospelers are all writing in Greek and there are very likely Greek ideas presented by the Gospelers and New Testament writers.
As I have stated previously all scripture must be interpreted in the context of all scripture. Rule 1 is to know who is talking to who.
Jesus was clearly addressing His disciples. His disciples could also heal and speak so that people could hear them in their native tongue. There was no New Testament so this was a means by which people could understand that the disciples were sent by God. Some have interpreted this to mean the Church has the power to forgive sins, but the Church does not have the other powers given directly to the disciples because we have the New Testament and the Old Testament today. 2Tim3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
The scripture contrasts your argument by stating 1John1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Jesus here is stating that John was greater than any of the Old Testament profits, including Moses, Abraham or David. John the Baptist was the last of the prophets, the voice crying out in the wilderness as foretold in Malachi 3:1. Jesus is contrasting the greatness of the prophets to those in the “kingdom of heaven”, as the least of us who are clothed in Jesus righteousness are even greater than the prophets. That is, Jesus lifts us up to an even greater height. How great is the person who lift us up to this height through His righteousness!
I would encourage you to spend some time and learn the Bible in the context of all scripture. There are free online classes at DTS.edu, Through the Bible (ttb.org) is also a great resource to show how all scripture is woven together, which proves it is God’s Word…
Very well. Then this is the most we can say about Jesus then. When he forgives sins, it’s also a proof that he was sent by God and nothing else, correct?
As for the forgiveness of sins, that authority was given to the church, according to GMatthew. John 20 is to the disciples, but Matthew talks about the church.
Well, that may be fine, but the words Jesus uses make it seem that John the Baptist was THE greatest among all men who were born of women, making no exceptions for Jesus.
I would likewise encourage you to research views held by Bible believers that do not agree with your own. You may discover that the issues of theology as not as cut and dry as one side makes it out to be.
The problem with this statement, is that in case of a conflict, you must select the main scripture text. For example, if one denies Jesus’ divinity, they would take the John 17 text, where Jesus tells that the Father is the ONLY True God and will interpret other texts in light of that one.
On the other hand, if you do hold the divinity of Jesus view, you will take the divinity passage and will interpret all others, including John 17, in light of that view. So, everyone can have ‘scripture interpreting scripture’ and come to different conclusions.