Oh yeah thanks my capacity forgetting is one of the few areas of life I find actually increasing with age.
Glad you asked. I hadn’t heard of it.
I don’t believe anyone on this thread argued your assertion that people today don’t have “supernatural powers beyond reasonable doubt like the apostles.” There has been some pushback countering that most people use cessationism to mean something more broad (the end of all charismatic gifts; signs and wonders, yes, but also speaking in tongues, prophesy, and healing). Hundreds of millions of Christians today claim experience with some of these charismatic gifts that have nothing to do exercising with “supernatural powers,” so to me, saying “I proved from the Bible those gifts have ceased” is a lot like saying “I proved from the Bible there was a global flood” or “I proved from the Bible evolution is a lie” or “I proved from the Bible racism isn’t real.” The Bible can’t be used to “prove” or “disprove” a whole lot of claims.
Here is a Scripture counter to arguments made at John MacArthur’s Strange Fire cessationist conference, some of which you have laid out above:
Sorry I p.m.ed you, if you found that irritating or inappropriate.
Sorry I haven’t been able to give the conversation as much attention as I had hoped to. I just finished a large project with a due date, and haven’t had time to do any serious study.
I’m glad you brought up the topic. It’s an important one. There’s a lot to think about and pull together. Even in the face of strong evidence, people don’t usually change their minds quickly and not without pushback. It helps us avoid constantly being blown in every direction. This topic can’t be resolved in just a few days in a discussion board. But you’ve still given people things to think about. Some of them will.
As far as Biologos being a humanist organization, I gotta say, no. There are, indeed, humanists here, and those of us Christians who have spent a lot of time in settings, where our most probing discussions have been with humanists (church settings often didn’t allow us the opportunities to pursue questions we can here). It’s a mixed and messy group with very different backgrounds, interests and goals. We’re all going to approach discussions differently.
As far as biblical and theological approaches to questions go, our backgrounds are part of how we approach these things. Theologically, you and I share a lot of common ground, but just our experiences in different denominations makes a big difference in the assumptions we make. We see it in the wide variety of denominations, who argue their positions from Scripture.
Finally, we all bring those different life experiences, and from those different assumptions, to how we read Scripture. Recognizing that is part of an honest assessment of our own limitations as interpreters of Scripture. We wrangle with the text and sometimes with the Holy Spirit as well. It’s part of the life of faith.
I’m sorry, if I’ve said things here that you find out of order. It’s not my purpose.
I suspect that what you believe is divine intervention is coincidence, cause and effect and the result of scientific processes.
Are you familiar with Maggie’s account, and Rich Stearns’? They’ve been around here a while.
Thanks for posting this, Christy. That article pretty much sums up my own thoughts about cessationism fairly nicely.
When I hear cessationist arguments in general, the phrase that comes to my mind is “throwing out the baby with the bathwater.” People such as John MacArthur rightly get concerned by the flakiness in some Charismatic circles, but respond by jumping to the conclusion that it must all be flaky. But that doesn’t necessarily follow. Once you’ve stripped away all the flaky stuff, there is a core that remains that (as far as I can tell at least) is pretty genuine. Back in the seventies and eighties, Charismatic leaders came up with a phrase “The correct response to misuse is not disuse, but proper use” in response to people who would have us throw the whole lot out on those grounds. I think that phrase is every bit as relevant to discussions such as this today as it was back then.
@jammycakes and @Christy and others I’ve missed naming, thanks for providing a perspective I am not very familiar with. “Raised cessationist” with core skeptic and materialistic tendencies to start with, it is natural for me to lump ALL experiences into the category of nonsense or abuse. Bad experiences with charismatics and family connections to Bethel’s SSM have nearly sealed the deal for me. But the Lord has always put this or that genuine, humble person with experiences of the Holy Spirit’s intervention in my life. So, whatever my doubts are, I have never been free to say, “No, I am certain that that experience is just endorphins.”
I value hearing from @jammycakes, because of your consistantly expressed concern that belief and reality correspond.
I dispise the charletans and abusers. And I am still highly skeptical. I can’t help that. But I recognize, too, that my skepticism is not proof of anything but the existance of my skepticism.
I’m not but a quick Google search shows he’s a compassionate guy.
I was referring to these: Maggie’s testimony and how the direction of Rich Stearns’ life was changed.
The existence of con men does not disprove the existence of people who do have spiritual gifts.
Those of us who have seen the miraculous workings of God in people we know are less likely to be cessationists, but an unwillingness to recognize the possibilities may make a person blind to the miracles.
I have read the summary, not every post but will throw in my h’appence.
I not only believe in spiritual; gifts I have had them. (I have not found them necessarily permanent)
I have healed (not personal glory as previously mentioned) and have had several experiences with apparent spiritual duplication (AKA feeding of the five thousand bit not always food or drink).
I can understand skepticism as, unless you are there at the time, any account is secondhand at best and may or may not require you to believe the teller…
I have attended Charismatic churches who sing in the spirit and have certain doubts on the actual spirituality of that, but the use of tongues appeared to be genuine.
Acts 2 was unique as a counterpoint to Babel and does not appear to be the normal expression of tongues. (IMHO)
It makes for a difficult discussion depending on your personal experiences and your view of Miracles and the Holy Spirit in general.
For now, just lump me in with those who disagree with Cessationism.
Richard
PS I do not think that Scripture can or should be used to try and prove Cessationism.
Everything is fully, naturally, explicable in shared narratives. One of the tricks psychopaths learn is to pretend to be empathic. Even without knowing that they are. That’s what makes them so dangerous. It is never necessary to ascribe any experience to the supernatural, and won’t work in court, history, science. It works in folk. A kind unknowingly self-deceived charlatan will make a lot of friends. Whether the kindness is ‘real’ or not.
Yeah, we have been here before. You do not like supernatural miracles. The trouble is I have actually witnessed them so it makes me sort of biased. And I do not need people like you to tell me that I am either delusional or mistaken, i know what I have seen. And it is more than once.
There is a general notion that if you don’t want t see something you will not, even if it is right in front of you…
Sorry and all that.
Richard
- @SkovandOfMitaze: “Biblical cessationism means recognizing that the Bible teaches that the spiritual powers given through the laying on of the apostles hands have ceased …” [Source: PM thread “Arguing about cessationism”.]
- Terry_Sampson’s rebuttal:
- “Biblical Young Earth Creationism means recognizing that the Bible teaches that the Earth was created in six days and is less than 10,000 years old.”
- “A Biblical Doctrine of Original Sin means recognizing that the Bible teaches that humans inherit the moral turpitude of the first humans.”
- “Biblical Sabbatarianism means recognizing that the Bible teaches that the Sabbath begins at sundown on Friday and ends at sundown on Saturday during which time no work shall be done.”
- “Biblical dispensationalism means recognizing that the Bible teaches that biblical history was divided by God into dispensations, defined periods or ages to which God has allotted distinct covenants or administrative principles.”
- “Biblical Reformed Calvinism means recognizing that the Bible teaches that the Bible is the inerrant and infallible ‘Word of God’ and requires full submission to the Bible above all else.”
- Here, I quote Jeff Straub who wrote: “It should be noted that from a historical standpoint, nearly all world Charismaticism is rooted in early American Pentecostal sources that have been exported around the world.” [Source: Reflections on Strange Fire and the Problem of Continuationism
- I say: "Gotta love “nearly all world Charismaticism” thinking, … it makes thinking so much easier when we can ignore the few exceptions or lump them in with the majority and hang 'em all.
- The Origins of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal in the United States: Early Developments in Indiana and Michigan and the Reactions of the Ecclesiastical Authorities
- How does one recognize truth in what is false but is believed to be true?
I love supernatural miracles (are there any other kind, apart from as metaphor in medicine and technology?). Your bias is what witnessed miracles. Mine couldn’t.
Sorry.
Some biases are correct. Think Maggie and Rich Stearns – they both witnessed miracles, as have I. And what is marvelous is that the miracles did not break any laws of nature, but they all had preternatural timing and placing. Like the Man in a boat on Galilee in a storm who said something and the storm suddenly stopped – the denialist would say that it wasn’t a miracle, it was just a coincidence, a statistical outlier, an x sigma lottery win.
Tell me. Are you prepared to accept the possibility of something that might seem supernatural?
If not God won’t push it. I have found that god works within our own limitations. IOW if you do not believe, you will never see.
Trouble is, the first step is a big one. A bit like using a parachute. You need to trust it first.
Richard
It seems sometimes cessationists base their view, at least in part, on a complete and perfect Bible, which requires them to ignore the few minor but clear errors in scripture.
And the cessationists who have had the opportunity to see miracles had to ignore those events too.
I periodically get newsletters from the Jesus Film Project, a unit of Cru (formerly known as Campus Crusade for Christ), and in those I read of many miracles. I don’t think these newsletters are spreading lies. And, as I have mentioned, I have seen the supernatural actions of God in family members and friends.