Acts 17
22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
They did not have scripture but had identified the place where God should be. All Paul had to do was guide them further.
The need for God is inherent. it does not come from Scripture. To all intents and purposes the people of Athens valued God, they just had not been able to identify Him properly.
Furthermore, I am prettty sure that God knows people like this, and approaches them within their scope of understanding. On this occasion it was via Paul, not written Scripture.
You limit God.
The message of the Church is based on Scripture but it not just Scripture. The main means of witness is the lives of Christian, not the written word. If people see that having a faith is beneficial they will want to know more. They do not want to be regaled by quotes about sin and death, they want to know how God can help them here and now
I’m a passionate theist and I trust Mother Father God with my whole being. But that doesn’t mean I can’t listen to other people and respect their journey.
Yes, that’s what I mean. Thank you for taking the time to read what I’ve written instead of assuming my position is purely theological. I’m no longer able to separate religious themes, beliefs, and consequences from the neuroscience we’re stuck with as human beings. Our biological brains are really quite literal and will go ahead and rewire themselves to accommodate and adapt to the “big ideas” (including religious memes) we’re exposed to under repeated conditions of social pressure. It takes a lot of hard work and courage for an individual to overcome all the ancillary neurophysiological effects of religious doctrines such as exceptionalism (i.e. “God says the rules are different for me and my clan”).
What’s interesting is that the doctrine of exceptionalism seems to pop up in all cultures and all time periods. It’s not just a Jewish or Christian thing, but of course these two are the examples we’re most familiar with.
So I’m not a Deist (that’s actually kind of funny!). I believe that God is constantly involved in the world, and for those purposes, individuals will often feel a call. But feeling a call isn’t the same thing at all as the religious doctrine of chosenness (i.e. exceptionalism). When a person receives a call, he or she will never be able to work effectively with God if he/she is consumed with the narcissism of exceptionalism.
The appropriate response to receiving a call is to say to God, “I’m humbled and blessed,” not “Hey, it’s about time you showed up so I can take what’s mine by right.”
Of course, I exaggerate slightly, but not by much.
Now there is a statement that limits God. How can you be certain that god has not revealed Himself to otehrs where they are? Jesus was definately aimed at Judaism. Besides, it is only comparitively recent that worldwide communication exists. Why would God ignore millions of people?
Look at the ethos of Native North American religion. what is wrong with it? It does not have sin because it is not needed. They respected nature and people and lived a simple and comaritively pure life. Even their scalping was misunderstood and branded barbaric, when it was a religious action to release the spirit.
And that is only one other view of God.
If there are other sentient beings, do you not think that God would meet them also? They could not possibly relate to a human version of God. God would have to meet them within their own culture and appearance.
There is nothing in Scripture that denies another route to God, Jesus saifd that the only route to the Father was through Him. That is specifying a view of God. Notwithstanding any hyperbole or accomodation for specific views. Admit it, Jesus could not admit to any other view of God in an area where other gods were worshipped.
The Bible is Scripture for Christianity. It will not encompass other (distant) viewpoints. That would be self defeating.
I have grown up under this doctrine, too @adamjedgar, and the related view that scripture interprets scripture. Anymore, I can only think in response, “Sometimes. Often.”
No, I don’t keep notes or a list of examples. But we even see NT writers playing fast and loose with OT texts that had had a very different true meaning before.
I understand that this sounds like giving up. In some ways, yes. I suppose. Giving up on the idea that I can have an absolute grasp of the absolute meaning of scripture.
It also means giving up trying to force things together that really don’t fit.
And finally, it means giving up on having it all layed out for me in the interpretive work of other theologians. I have to keep working and learning, sifting and evaluating.
I’ve met too many people from different christian traditions who have important insights into our faith that I haven’t allowed myself to see but can’t deny, either.
It makes things harder. It’s nice to have a clearly delineated rubric for evaluating truth. But the ones I had seem to be approving of things I can’t and leading to conclusions I believe are flat out wrong. The rubrics don’t reconcile those things for me, except if I deny other things I know are true for the sake of doctrine.
but the Father IS God, the Ancient of Days. As for the Bible, it is the Scriptures for the whole world. Gentiles, ie everyone else who is not Jewish, spread throughout the world are being grafted into the vine, and come to believe in the God of Israel. I find that astounding. All other ‘gods’ are false and not to be touched with a barge pole nor worshipped, and that includes the creation. It is a question of reality.
You call God Father, as do I, but that does not mean that someone calling Him Allah is identifying a false or different God.
What matters is not the name, or the process but the intent and sincerity. God sees the heart not the words or doctrine. Someone brought up in the tradition of Hinduism can be as genuine (or false) as someone brought up or converted to Christianity.
Neither God, or you can expect someone who has been a Hindu for generations just to flip religions just because of Christian Scripture. Especially as Christianity condemns anyone who does not agree with it. I cannot tell a Hindu that all their friends, family and ancestors are in Hell because they did not become Christians. And I do not think God can ether, if He did I would not worship Him.
What matters is who you have faith in, not how strong your faith is. Reality.
I dont know about Hindus, but there currently seems to be a significant number of Muslims turning to Jesus, despite the possible consequences. And God does not condemn due to ignorance.
That is just so unfair. How can you possibly believe it? And you will have difficulty proving it. Christ consistently compliments people on the strength of their faith.
You clearly do not care about your neighbour, unless they are Christian. That in itself is not Christian.
Richard
PS Bhaal was never a view of the true God. The ethos did not reflect him. On the other hand Islam is based on the same Old Testament Scripture that Christianity is. The examples in the Old Testament cannot be transferred to world religions who never came into contact with Judaism.
If anyone is a Christian, then they believe Jesus is the only way to God, as not only because he is God in the flesh but because he is the only one to die for others so that their sin can be forgiven. This is basic Christianity. So Im hardly unique in my understanding.
I am just catching up with this thread. The respectfulness and objectivity is reassuring. As far as faith and acceptance of God and incorporating the man Jesus in our view: to me the basic foundation is not WHAT or WHO God is, but how we are impacted by the “UNKNOWN” things that men attribute to ‘godliness’. I agree that there is no walled off or specific category called GOD. Rather God is an experience whereby we set our own boundaries. The bible is the main document left by our forefathers to guide us in this endeavor. Even a casual read of history shows a central theme of us wanting to know the unknown. Jesus seems to be the epitome and Coupe de Gras of this 4000 years of recorded search for truth.
Just want to say welcome! You’ll find a wide range of beliefs, opinions, and experiences here, some that you agree with and some that you don’t. But there’s usually something new to learn!
Welcome , Bernie. Look over the FAQs including the community guidelines for gracious dialogue. Feel free to flag any posts that are in violation. we tend to give a little latitude, but want this to be a welcoming place for all who are willing.
So… my first response was reasons why myself, non-Christian though I was at the time, came to value God. But perhaps I can focus on the topic a bit more than this, even though my reasons for belief do show a number of reasons why a non-Christian might value or believe in God.
Well… OBVIOUSLY, since there are other religions than Christianity. So… perhaps the question is whether there is reason for belief in God without religion. But then again I could say OBVIOUSLY again since there are plenty of people who want nothing to do with any established religions even though they believe in God. So… perhaps the real question is not why someone raised in religion might still believe in God after rejecting religion, but why a person might have reasons for value or belief in God, but would stop there and not go any further to give any credit or value to those who have valued and believed in God and thus started some religion.
Well that isn’t very difficult, since we have quite a history of abuse and misuse of religion to explain why someone would stop there.
Awe and wonder doesn’t look like such a good reason to me. I see many atheists with a plenty of awe and wonder and yet no reason for believing in a God. Besides the whole point of God for believers is living in a relationship with this being. You have a desire to do things for God and also want to see many things in your life as things which God has done for you. It is not just mystery or awe and wonder. It is a give and take relationship. To be sure this can go sideways in a number of directions… such as the desire to see lightning as punishment from God, or making deals with God to get him to give you what you want. But the answer to this is guarding against such things.
