Why a non Christian might nonetheless value God

Faith & Science Conversation
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21

It doesn’t exist

People do not need Scripture to know that they are not perfect. And the idea that God is perfect is not the sole right of Scripture It is the basic idea of (a) God…

Look around you. People are trying to be holy. They are searching for a way to appease this perfect and fearful God. They do not know Him. All they have is a notion that god must exist. People have invented versions of God, from pantheons to astronomical objects, even fire.
Anythng they do not understand or conversely anyone the admire becomes “god”.

God is not confined to Scripture, neither is the concept of god. Remember Acts 17?

The answer is there in Scripture! People need to know the real God! That is why we witness. Not to condemn, but to comfort. Christianity preaches forgiveness not damnation! Christianity overturns the idea of an angry, or aggressive, or selfish god. It is not about Salvation or Heaven

“Comfort, comfort my people” says Isaiah.

People think they have to conform to rules and regulations to please God. Virtually every religion has a strict code of practice that they believe will earn them God’s blessing. People think it is up to them. God is distant, angry and demanding. Christianity shows that God is not only approachable, He approaches.

Christ did not come into the world to condemn the world but to save it.

From what, or who?

From God?

No!

You still have an angry and vengeful, and vicious God who would send 909% of the world to Hell!

The Gospel is not what you preach!

God says I forgive you/

You say “But only if you believe in Jesus”

You insist on reading Scripture. You insist on turning you life into some sort of sainthood. You want to be Holy. God does not. That is not the message of Scripture.

You are telling God that He cannot forgive everyone. You are telling God that He must punish the wicked.

You preach a false Gospel.

RIchard

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22

Acts 17 says

30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed.

Please provide relevant eferences that support your claims because my Bible states exactly the opposite to what you claim above and quoting Acts 17…I’m not sure what your aim is there?

The theological fact is, according to the biblical account, anyone who does not accept the gospel and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will not be saved. These individuals will be condemned and burn in the fire and brimestone that will cleanse the earth as described in Revelation.

So yes, God is a jealous God…absolutely that is exactly what He is and the bible tells us exactly that btw!

Exodus 20: 4You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in the heavens above, on the earth below, or in the waters beneath. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6but showing loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments

The Lord has equally damning statements for the church of Laodicea in the book of Revelation

14To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originatore of God’s creation.

15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

So how then can individuals who did not know God be saved? Answer: they listened to the whisperings of the Holy Spirit and lived the fruits of the spirit. See we need only to know the difference between right and wrong and live according to a Godly conscience and we may be saved if we have not received the gospel via other means. This is not salvation by works…its a recognition of conscience which is exactly what the new covenant is all about (God writes his laws on our hearts and in our minds).

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No it does not. You just choose the verses that match your doctrine.

You have changed God’s grace into an obligation and His gift into a closed door two which only you have the key

Again no, because I do not abuse Scripture by quoting out of context. Scripture is not a list of quotations, citations and references…

That iis a perversion of the Gospel of forgiveness and love. You care too much about Eternity and not about your fellow human.

Your gospel is toxic. That is why so many refuse to accept it.

Christ saves all. It is not a padlock to be opened. There is nothing we need do, be it physical or mental. Grace has no obligation.

God put that on our hearts. That is also in Scripture, you quote it but you seem to ignore it,or pervert it.

And it is the guilty conscience that Christ saves us from, not Hell. We know we are inadequate. We do not need Scripture to tell us. But God says “I do not care!” “I forgive you!”

You are here to spread good news not fear and guilt and terror. God does not want us to be forced into Heaven! He does not need two bouncers shoving peopple into church. He stands at the door and knocks You use a bulldozer.,

God criticises those who would be Holy. Those who do not live up to their own standards.

You missed out a bit.

“How I wish you were one or the other!”

He wants us to be true. Not ambivalent.

You twist Scripture to mean what you preach. It does not. You are missing the whole point of a God of Love. Love is not bought, and it does not need reciprocation. Love is. God is Love. Love does not condemn. Jesus came to save us from our guilt not punishment.

Richard

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And why not? I’d go further than Richard and say that one can obsess over scripture to the point of becoming deaf to what the Holy Spirit might otherwise have to tell you here and.
now. The living God lives in us and in every part of creation. He didn’t wander off after the Bible was written. That of course is my opinion and I have no scripture to support it though it seems anyone can support almost any position with the Bible assuming they know where the needed cherries can be found.

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Hi Mark,

I got to thinking about what you wrote here. I know that Christianity is of minimal interest to you (though you see some positive kernels in there somewhere), but I’m especially interested in your statement about “Jesus as the lived example.”

I guess I’m wondering a couple of things. First, do you believe that Jesus was an actual historical figure who walked around as a living human being, or do you see him as a created symbol or archetype? Some people have given up on the idea of the historical Jesus and just want to look at the information about how to live as a human being. (I’m not one of the latter group, but perhaps you feel comfortable with this approach to Jesus?)

Second, regardless of whether you believe Jesus was a real person or not, what made you decide on Jesus as the lived example? There are other, non-Christian examples to be studied and considered for the wisdom they might offer. Are you happy with the particular moral fences that Jesus’ Gospel teachings set out – though the exact meaning of the teachings can often elude us? I’m just asking, because if you’re choosing Jesus as the lived example, it’s not a free-for-all in the choices you make (if you’re trying to follow Jesus’ example).

Some philosophical systems offer people unlimited choices and unrestricted use of their free will with no consequences of any kind. But Jesus isn’t one of those teachers.

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What you need to remember is who Jesus was aiming His teaching. Israel/Judaism have a special place in God’s relationships. They are the chosen people, called to be Holy. Jesus aims His teaching at those who either claim to be, or are supposed to be holy. He is not preaching to the Gentiles or those who do not believe in God.

And this is the main problem with Biblical Christianity. It is biased. It assumes both a belief in God and a desire to follow Him.

Richard

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I’m in the camp that believes there are no chosen people, only people who hope or believe they’re chosen. And I’m in the camp that believes the quest for holiness and perfection is definitely a biblical idea, but not an idea that was preached by Jesus. For sure, you can give me long lists of early Christian theologians who did everything in their power to make sure Christianity was a “purity, piety, and perfection” religion. There have many of these religions throughout the annals of human history, and some continue to coexist with Christianity today, but I understand the teachings of Jesus within a different paradigm, a paradigm also expressed in the writings of the man we call Job. Job was a Jew, but he certainly put paid to the idea that his Jewishness gave him any special privileges with God.

But we all have our own ways of understanding these issues.

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I am sorry, but even I cannot dispute the Bible on this one. Whether that position still exists is more of a mute point, but as far as Biblical times are concerned Israel have a unique place.

I am less convinced that Christians have taken over this position. I do not see God as having favourites outside of Judaism and His chosen race.

Richard

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So in other words . . . God has favourites?

30

I think anyone would have difficulty denying that is what Scripture says. How that plays out is not our concern. All we need to know is that God loves all of His creation.

Richard

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Do you dispute the realities of 1st century Palestine, where cities held large non-Jewish populations and constant exposure to non-Jewish religious practices and social customs? It’s hard to imagine that Jesus could have visited all the places listed in various parts of the Gospels and not encountered or factored in the non-Jewish children of God he was meeting everywhere he went. Does it say he refused to heal Gentiles or offer the gift of forgiveness to Gentiles? If he’d wanted to help only Jews who followed the ritual laws of purity as they existed then, he could have gone to Qumran and joined their ultra-Pure community.

He didn’t do that.

Even one of his apostles – Phillip – has a Greek name. Phillip could have been a Greek Jew, but his name suggests a family background from somewhere other than Palestine, a background which doesn’t seem to have bothered Jesus. ( I acknowledge the difficulty of trying to deduce origins based on names alone, but it is an interesting thought.)

Scripture may say it, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. And it very much matters how people absorb this doctrine of chosenness into their lives. It is completely our concern, and is central to our understanding of what Jesus said, what Jesus meant, and why Jesus was adopted by God.

Job challenged Moses on the doctrine of chosenness (per the entire Book of Job). Jesus challenged his fellow Jews on the doctrine of chosenness (per the Gospel of Mark). People don’t like it when you tell them God loves all souls equally – and Jesus’ doctrines on God’s Love were so radical in their time that even today we can barely bring ourselves to accept that Jesus really meant it when he said there were only two great commandments (Mark 12: 28-34).

Does true, compassionate, eternal Love pick favourites?

I don’t think so.

32

I don’t really focus on Jesus the person though I assume he was real. I do think every person is a child of God so I don’t think he was a god in his own right. God had no beginning but Jesus did. His example goes to the degree to which we should trust in God but more especially to how we should treat one another in light of our all being of God. My focus is just on God at this point.

I think all our choices have consequences even if they’re not always the ones we think they should be.

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I’m trying to understand this but I’m just not making sense of it - can you clarify exactly what you mean by “what God says about God?” The only logical sense I can make of it is if you are actually claiming you have received direct, verbal, perspicuous revelation(s) from God wherein he has directly communicated to you details or facts about himself, but I’m guessing that isn’t what you mean?

No Christian I personally know has ever claimed that their understanding or knowledge about God has come directly from God, so I’m a bit baffled by the statement.

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I see God’s communications with us in everything that happens in our lives. Being open to God’s guidance and presence and ongoing Love goes beyond anything that can be put into words.

I think God is always talking to each and every one of us, because we’re all God’s children. However, we’re often our own worst enemies when it comes to opening our hearts and minds to God. Sometimes the message is right in front of us, and we just don’t want to see it.

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I gets pretty close in Matthew 15.

That is a can of worms i have opened too often.

i don;t think so. We are in the realm of trying to judge or fathom God. The human view of favouritism may not be tha same with God. As I see it, those who are favoured more is expected. God is harsher with those who would be holy and fail. Equality and Justice are human concepts that do not commute to God and Heaven.

Job challenges the idea of prosperity, not favouirtism par se.

Depends on what the manifestation is. We do not fully understand god’s ways.

Richard

36

Ha ha, yes – haven’t we all!

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“In the Beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” John 1:1

Did God create us and the universe? Yes or No?

Whether GOD did or not, cannot be proven, because it happened long before my time. even so, the truth is the truth regardless of what I may think.

God does not need me to know God/ the Logos. I need to know the Truth/Logos, Jesus Christ if I expect to understand what life is all about and, how I can live it to the fullest.

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God has revealed Himself in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. If you are looking elsewhere for God, or having faith in someone or something else, you’ve really missed God altogether. “This is my Son whom I love. Listen to Him.”

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The bible doesnt contradict itself nor have i quoted out of context. You in fact are pulling verses that do not address your claims.

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Then you must be a Deist.

God cannot involve Himself in our lives without choosing people.

Or… do you only think that God involves Himself in tiny insignificant things?

Because if God involves Himself in the events of the world then He must even choose nations.

Is it possible you mean something different? …that being chosen doesn’t mean what some people think? Or is it possible that even you do not understand what being chosen is all about. …because it is something the Jewish people have rarely seen as a wonderful thing for themselves… Often they have wished God had chosen other people for what they have endured for the sake of God and the world.

Reading your posts suggests that you are understanding being chosen as meaning some kind of entitlement. If so then I don’t believe in that either. And I think that is what Christians have turned it into more than anybody else. …entitled to slaves and taking the land of other peoples. Maybe that bad example began rubbing off on the Jewish people with the start of the Zionist movement. Remember though many Jews disagreed with them.

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