I have never whined. I only pointed out my circumstances, It is just a statement of fact. You have not seen my wife writhing in agony because of cramp. Cramp for goodness sake! That is not providence in any shape or form! There can be no justification for it and you are being callous to even suggest that “God did it” Like Job, she has done nothing to deserve her afflictions. And like the friends of Job you cannot speak for God! (in this matter)
Richard
I do recommend some meditation on the verses cited, however. And the Psalms – they run the gamut.
? The natural, worldly view as opposed to God’s view and the supernatural? You deny the distinction? What is synonymous with what, and what’s false?
I did just notice that I had their respective positions reversed in the edit. It would be better read as
Don’t conflate the VFB with the VFA the natural, worldly view with God’s view and the supernatural…
“But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.” ~ Isaiah 53:5.
“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” - Colossians 1:24.
This is worth reading: 1 Peter Chapter 1. (Some will of course pretend the first two verses aren’t there, or at least will redact three words. ; - )
A pertinent excerpt:
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith – of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire – may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
And it’s been a while since some of us have read this, too, and maybe if read, never digested: Hebrews 12:1-13
(Although you’ve seen verse 2 cited often enough. ; - ) –
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
And in case anyone thinks I’m being glib, I sent @RichardG a PM detailing some of my and my wife’s medical woes over the last several years,
Jesus suffered because of our sins. It is another matter if we suffer. Most of our suffering is not what Paul described ‘sufferings for your sake’.
In some cases, suffering may open the eyes of a person and lead towards a better way. I do not believe that all suffering does that or that suffering somehow makes people better. Suffering may even cripple a person for a long time. Suffering seems to bring what is within us to surface, rather than making us better persons.
I do not want any misconceptions. Iam not belittling the suffering of Christ. All I claim is that our suffering is not direct from God in any shape nor form and certainly not as any sort of punishment or training.
Richard
“More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.”
Romans 5:3-5
“In this you rejoice, though now for a little while you may have to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold which though perishable is tested by fire, may redound to praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
1Peter 1:6-7
“We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose..” Romans 8:28.
“all things” includes suffering.
The BS factor here is the presumption that Christian theology is NOT the product of human reasoning and understanding. Not only is it a product of human reasoning, but it is furthermore founded on the flimsiest and most subjective evidence. Which is why there is so little agreement on the things of religion. By contrast, there is no theoretical science with more evidence than evolution. And science is founded on written procedures which give the same result no matter who does them or what their desires or beliefs may be. Thus evolution has the solid foundation of a rock compared to anything in Christian theology.
When evolution is made into some kind of theory of everything extended to philosophical areas beyond biology then it is indeed an exaggeration. But the claims that evolution is scientific fact is not an exaggeration in the slightest. Frankly I am convinced evolution is the key to saving Christianity and Christian theology by moving them away from the distortions motivated by its abuse for the purpose of power and manipulation. I would not be a Christian without it, for otherwise I would have to agree with the atheists, seeing no way to distinguish anything of Christianity apart from such misuse.
The process of evolution is a fact. The theory (TOE) is not. It cannot ever be unless the time machine is built and we go back and watch it all happen. And even then we probably wont see how it happens.
It is this certainty and insistence of fact that is the heart of this and all other arguments about evolution (on this forum at least)
Richard
Incorrect. What happened is all recorded in the genetics, showing what happened when and how. It is frankly better than a time machine, which could only show you a small portion of the past, and not how as you observed. The failure of even a fantasy time machine to provide the proof you demand just goes to show that you are defending an unfalsifiable beachhead for reasons which obviously have nothing to do with science or evidence. You ignore all the data God sends us from the earth and sky the same way the Israelites wouldn’t hear the words of Jeremiah.
Cobblers!
All you can see is a comparison of DNA coding. You cannot see the heredity in action or prove that the connections were made in that method.
A designer can and would use DNA coding as building bricks.
Richard
PS The lottery machines were designed and built. Does that mean that the designer is controlling which balls come out? That appears to be your definition of design
And indeed they do and will much more in the future. But these are machines not living organisms. And that difference is also abundantly evident in the DNA of living things which which is far far far far far more information that what is needed to grow the living organism. It is a record of the genetic changes by which the organisms evolved.
YES! They design those machines to make money! They design the probability distribution to their advantage. It is rather curious that this is what you think living organisms (including people) are… LOL… just slot machines with a random number generator built in.
DNA coding has not been sufficiently decoded for you to make that assertion. Redundant DNA in an adult may just be DNA necessary in the development that is now redundant in the adult. That would make perfect sense. Nature is not known for its frivolity or sentimentality. To claim that DNA is there just to prove its heredity is down right ridiculous.
Just one more conspiracy theory.
The makers of the machine were probably contracted and once built had nothing more to do with them other than maybe a maintenance contract… if you are going to claim that the Lottery (which ever one) is rigged the gaming board (in which ever country) would have had something to say about it long long ago.
Richard
God rigged five lotteries for Maggie. Is he incapable of controlling other lucky stars too? Read and heed your Proverbs, one verse in particular, and do not conflate science and theology.
(I have a degree in maths and believe in the rules of probability… but to whom and what1 they happen is another story.)
1 (I’m thinking DNA here.)
It is demonstrable that the DNA showing heredity is there. The reason isn’t to show anything. The reason is because it was used in our evolutionary past. There was no designer removing portions not needed, Mutations for turning off the portions we no longer use is simpler than mutations removing them – one little off switch compared to cutting out all the DNA for those features.
The DNA for common ancestors with other living things is not the same as redundant DNA, and we can measure what portions are used in development. 92% is never used and that is good because they are not for human features. 98.8% of our DNA are from our common ancestors with chimpanzees including the DNA for tails. 70% are from our common ancestors with zebra fish (400 million years ago) including DNA for gills. Since we only use 8% of our DNA, clearly we are not using the vast majority of that DNA. The genetic data just doesn’t agree with your designer ideology and only agrees with the fact of common ancestry.
P.S. Yeah I know… chimps don’t have tails. I didn’t say they did! Some common ancestors with chimps 25-33 million years ago (not the most recent, 8 million years ago) did have tails.
P.P.S. Very rarely humans are born with tails. It is not because all the DNA for making tails appeared from nowhere just in them. It is because a mutation turned that genetic switch to activate the DNA we all have already.
P.P.P.S. This tail DNA is only one of many many examples. Another is a rare whale that is born with legs. Of course you can always pull the unfalsifiable God card and say God wanted the occasional human born with tails or the occasional whale born with legs. But that gives God not only a sick sense of humor but makes Him a deceiver.
It really is. Where did you get the idea? Scientific reality has no proofs in mind because it has no mind. If someone did say that here, I missed it, and if they did, they too are conflating science with non-science nonsensically.
I have often stated that we as humans make mistakes (be it science or theology) and have on occasion referred to errors in Orthodox (Patristic) writings, particularly those dealing with philosophical and old ideas on science within their theological discussions. So, I cannot understand why you make the inference that I may think otherwise.
You are welcomed to your opinion, as indeed are all of us. Just for the record, I claim I am a Christian because I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God sent to us by the Father for our salvation. Long after scientific theories are clarified and we cease our silly debates, Jesus will still be our truth and way to life with God.
No… I was just thinking of slot machines. I am not so familiar with lotteries – never having purchased a lottery ticket and living in a state which doesn’t do that.
Not the same.
Slot machines have a bias to allow the house to make a profit. No problem.
The Lottery is supposed to be completely uncontrolled. “Anyone” (who buys a ticket) can win
@Dale if God did rig the lottery for this Maggie of yours it does not prove He does it every time in every lottery. Judging by the disaster winning often has it would be poor providence anyway.
Richard
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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