It looks like the most significant reason for Widder holding to some form of an early date is the manuscript evidence found in Qumran: “it seems more likely to me that the bulk of the book was known and revered in some form long before the sectarian community tucked itself away in the Judean Desert.”
I do not see convincing evidence that Jesus has already returned. That the early church believed that Jesus would return soon is not evidence that the return has happened already. During the early years, there were those telling that it happened already. As we can read from the letters of Paul, he was not happy about that kind of teaching.
The passages speaking about the return of Jesus tell that it will be a visible and widely recognized happening. I have not read any reports about such events.
How we interpret the teachings of Jesus should accord with reality. Interpretations that are in conflict with the reality are not credible.
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I’m curious.
Do you believe that Jesus is going to literally ride a cloud, or a horse, from somewhere in space or another dimension and we will all see it. As he’s floating down angels are going to be blowing horns and people all over the world will hear it? You don’t think the “cloud rider” is symbolism as we see it throughout the Bible?
After he comes, and makes everyone immortal not killed, does that mean life as we know it ends. No more evolution. Just a cessation of biodiversity?
What about the verses I posted in Isaiah? How do you interpret it when it says it n the restored world there will still be death? Were they just wrong or did God change his kind?
Hi Dale,
If the prior verses do refer to the fall of Jerusalem, what are we to make of Jesus saying “immediately after the distress of those days”? It seems that this all has to be part of the same set of events. Even more so given Matt. 24:34 and it’s reference to “all these things.”
I just find it improbable that we are supposed to insert a gap of thousands of years into this passage between the destruction and the coming on the clouds and gathering of the elect.
I believe that there is also good reason to think that “coming on the clouds of heaven” is not intended to refer to literal clouds that we see in the sky. Looking at OT usage of same.
Do you notice how the same question can be asked if you believe Jesus literally resurrected and how did he visibly ascend to heaven
Verse 30 and 31 may be these last days. It’s been awhile but I recall how some post-mil writers describe the period the NT was written as a transitional period between the Old and New Covenants.
I also recall how NT Wright reads the coming on clouds as the ascension of Christ to his throne
I do think there are some verses that pose a profound problem for the full preterist position and those that speak of the bodily resurrection of the dead are one of them. It is hard to argue that Paul is speaking symbolically in 1 Corinthians 15 when he says:
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. (1 Cor 15:21-23 NIV)
Perhaps, the resurrection of the dead is also apocalyptic language? I’m not sure, that will do, since Paul also says:
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised… For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. (1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV)
Whatever Paul thought when the return of Jesus he seems pretty clear about what would happen when he did. The dead in Christ would receive resurrection bodies.
Again, whatever we say about how Paul’s apocalyptic language should be understood, he is consistent on what will happen at Jesus return:
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. (1 Thess 4:13-14)
The Gospel writers also seem to be pretty set on a bodily resurrection at Jesus’ return:
Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbours; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.” (Luke 14:12-14)
Jesus replied, “Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God? When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:24-27)
Again, whatever “like the angels” means, the passage teaches a bodily resurrection as part of the eschaton.
This theme is especially true in the Johannine books:
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his [Jesus] voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (John 5:28-29)
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:40)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)
See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1-2)
These verses lead me to believe that the writers of the New Testament expected the last day to come at Jesus’ return and that part of this last day would include the resurrection of the dead.
I’m not sure how to interpret that from a fully preterist position but I am certainly interested in learning. 
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I’ve read his “Last Days” book and really enjoyed it. I’ve also read the book by Russell he discusses in “Last Days.” I recommend both to anyone interested in further investigation of this topic.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0801018587/
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0801077257/
As far as Acts 1:11. In Acts 1:9 it states “a cloud hid him from their sight. (NIV)” I think it’s fair to ask what sort of cloud this was and what it might mean given other coming with clouds language.
There’s an entire book on this one topic alone that I’ve read.
His ascent was hidden by a cloud
Certainly 2000 years distance from the time and place and culture can make understanding these writings difficult to understand. I think studying biblical typology and symbolism can help deal with our modern inclination to take figurative language in a literal sense. I’m not saying that the resurrection of the dead and the judgment are symbolic.
As far as Paul goes, whatever it is he thought was going to happen, he likewise thought it was going to be soon. For example:
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/24-15.htm
I think the main question is, what is the relationship of this to the end of the old covenant? The temple, sacrifices, and mosaic law. When did those all come to an end, and is their end associated with the resurrection and judgment in scripture?
I can’t rattle off verses off the top of my head, but I am sure that these are all wrapped up with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70. That is certainly where the New Testament places them anyways!.
Take for example this passage from early in Matthew 3:
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
And yes, this coming wrath was “about to” come (Strong’s 3195). The axe was already at the roots.
Never would have guessed there was a translation issue there
“a cloud took him out of their sight” esv
As I said, I’m a partial preterist so I have no problem interpreting a lot of passages as relating to events up to and surrounding the destruction of the Temple.
However, when speaking of the resurrection of the dead, especially in 1 Cor 15, prove more tricky to typologise.
For example, Paul’s logic in 1 Cor 15:12-19 is essentially a long chain of “if this then that” arguments.
- IF the dead are not [physically raised] THEN Christ is not [physically] raised
- IF Christ is not physically raised THEN our faith is futile.
- IF our faith is futile THEN we are still in our sins
- IF we are still in our sins THEN righteous dead are lost
- IF the righteous dead are lost THEN we only have hope for this life
- IF we only have hope for this life THEN we of all people should be most pitied.
We can then summarise that chain like this:
- IF the dead are not physically raised from the dead THEN we of all people should be most pitied.
Of course, rarely can any theological system perfectly accommodate every single relevant verse in the Bible. However, as I said, I think these verses above and this passage in particular is especially problematic.
As for expectations of the New Testament writers, well, I don’t find that as problematic. The disciples spent most of their time with Jesus expecting him to kick out the Romans, but that doesn’t mean we should expect him to.
I will willingly concede though that the Olivet Discourse, is in places, extremely hard to fit even into a partil preterist framework. Particularly the verse you quoted about “Immediately following the distress of those days.”
Qumran provides the terminus ad quem. That is, the latest possible date. Daniel can be dated no later than its earliest manuscript evidence. That is tautological. At Qumran we find an apocalyptic sect and a lot of apocalyptic literature do we not? Daniel (the 2nd half) is clearly apocalyptic literate. There is no telling how much earlier Daniel must be. In fact, very serious events prompted it.
Most scholars divide the book into two parts and think is the first half consist of traditional Daniel stories (high court tales of which there seem to have been many in antiquity) that were pieced together. It reads like fiction as does the Joesph story. Daniel and his companions are the absolute bestest of the best in all the land. These are idealized scenes meant to teach theological points.
I doubt anyone thinks none of these stories existed before 163-164. Most of them did exist and were known by various people. The main problem is Daniel is laser sharp at accurately predicting things up to 163-164 then not so much after. That is the biggest historical clue to the date of the extant canonical version of the text.
Edited to add, does the author address the problem of deception with Daniel being written “falsely” in his name and attempting to pawn off ancient prophecy as accurate? I have seen several evangelicals use this argument. I read a piece by Richard Bauckham on this but its so deep its difficult to explain to a normal person. but the idea is Daniel is lookin forward, not backward. Claiming God is sovereign over all as hope for the future and to maintain identity. But given the aforementioned problems with Daniel being late and not written by Daniel and having a bunch of, let’s be honest, failed prophecies, how do we deal with this book?
Vinnie
Well I’m a nutshell Paul also refers to the body as a seed and that it must be planted for a new body to die up. A body with a new flesh. A spiritual flesh. It’s in the came chapter.
As for the rest it will be days before I dig into it.
Additionally, from my perspective, it will not do to say Paul is contrasting Jesus’ physical resurrection with the believer’s typological resurrection, since the thrust of 15:12-38 is Paul arguing for a physical resurrection of the dead:
- 1 Cor 15:12-34 - if there is no physical resurrection of the dead there is no hope
- 1 Cor 15:35-39 - the resurrection body is a New Creation body
- 1 Cor 15:40-57 - the resurrection of the dead as the final victory over death
- 1 Cor 15:58ff - conclusion: our labours in the lord are not in vain because the dead will be raised
True, but as part of the wide context of the chapter, and Paul’s background as a card-carrying Jew, I don’t think it is fair to say that because the word ‘spiritual’ appears in the passage it is not physical. It is a spiritual body not because it is disembodied, but because it comes from the Spirit. As for his language about seeds, Paul is, I believe trying to use an analogy based on his own historically-rooted understanding of agriculture to describe something that is at the very fingertips of his understanding.
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Is Paul arguing for Heaven on Earth? Or specifically the second Coming?
There are a few passages that suggest that the dead are sleeping until the final resurrection which might suggest that Heaven is on hold?
Or is there a confusion between the second coming and the life beyond this one?
(I am not arguing for or against either at this point)
Richard
- Cloud took Jesus out of sight?
- Gee, where have I heard of a cloud doing weird stuff like that? Oh yeah, I remember:
Exodus 13:21. “And the LORD was going before them in a pillar of cloud by day to lead them on the way, and in a pillar of fire by night to give them light, so that they might travel by day and by night.”
- Gee, where have I heard of a cloud doing weird stuff like that? Oh yeah, I remember:
Well I think what Paul is laying out is that Adam was a fleshy body. Jesus was a spiritual Adam. They both were born of flesh. Yet it’s not flesh and blood that inherits the kingdom of God.
So it seems to me, it’s the spiritual resurrection that is being discussed. A spiritual body that can be seen through visions. Like with Paul where only hew saw and heard. Not everyone.
I think the bodily resurrection is the resurrection of a spiritual body. Not flesh and blood. Regardless of how it appears or feels in visions.