No, I don’t reject Vatican 2.
No, I wouldn’t describe myself as a Traditionalist exactly, although I do agree with a lot of their views. On the other hand, a lot of Trads are unfortunately very anti- Semitic … as for me, I’m part Jewish and very pro-Israel.
One Catholic “social justice” cause célèbre was feminism, cultural Marxism’s favourite daughter.
In Australia, a current Catholic “social justice” obsession is the worship of Aborigines, which sprung from anti-colonialism, another child of Marxism.
Most, if not all, Loony Left causes have their roots in Marxism and communism.
Have you noticed how rich countries are now feeling obliged to donate billions of dollars to poor countries due to feeling guilty about “climate change”? That’s a socialist/Marxist/communist dream come true!
Have you noticed that “climate change” hysteria is an invention of the Left?
What makes it Marxist? Marxism is the process of the workers taking the control of factories and the means of production. I don’t see what that has to do with feminism.
And are you opposed to equal rights for women?
In what way are they worshipped??? What does anti-colonialism have to do with Marxism??? We had a little anti-colonial revolution here in the US, and it wasn’t Marxist or communist. It was very capitalist.
That’s not Marxism, and I don’t see a problem with spending money to lower carbon emissions since CO2 doesn’t stay within borders.
Again, Marxism is the workers taking control of the means of production.
No, I haven’t noticed. It has nothing to do with politics. It is a scientific conclusion backed by mountains of evidence. The first calculations demonstrating climate change were done by Svante Arrhenius in 1896. The increase in both global temperatures and atmospheric carbon dioxide are matters of science, not politics.
Cited appropriately? No. Misused and abused? Yes.
Following is the true story of my Rolex watch which I think sheds light on your comment:
I bought a Rolex watch in a market in Africa—for ten dollars. How do I know it is the real thing? First, the market trader assured me it was, and was even offended that I would ask. Next, it says “Rolex” on both the watch face, and is engraved with “Rolex” on the back.
It is also a lousy watch. It quit working within weeks of the purchase. This is all true.
So now I make sure that everyone I meet I tell how lousy Rolex watches are, and warn them against buying one—(of course not.) It is obviously counterfeit—fake. I know that by comparing it to genuine Rolex watches.
True followers of Jesus do what Jesus did, and obey and teach what Jesus taught. Of course, not all the time, because we still live in a sinful fallen world. And when we don’t act as we should, we are bringing the name of Christ into ill repute, and are taking the name of the Lord in vain.
Satan loves to defame God’s people and God’s church, and defame God’s word by twisting scripture. He is an accuser of the saints. But we need to be careful that we do not do the same. And like the fake Rolex watch, there are fake Christians. Just because a person claims to be a Christian or attends church doesn’t mean they are a true follower of Christ. After all, sitting in a garage doesn’t make me a car, anymore than sitting in a church pew makes me a Christian.
The lesson from the parable of the fake Rolex watch is that, for those who are Christians, we must be very careful not to attribute the works of the devil to God or to his children. When we do this, we are also taking God’s name in vain.
There are several good comments in these posts, and I agree with many of them. Here is my take on the “social justice” movement.
What is the source of everything that is good?
“Every good gift and every perfect gift comes down from above, from the Father of lights, with whom is no variation nor shadow of turning.” James 1:17. Every . . . Every good gift at its source is God, not humans or human government, although God may use these as his means. But the ultimate source of all good is God. And the ultimate solution for the world’s problems is changed lives through the salvation that Jesus Christ brought about at Calvary. And ultimate justice will come when Jesus returns—Isaiah 42:1-6.
There are counterfeit “goods” and we need to be watching out for them.
Evil exists. And it can be very attractive and look respectable. Satan is a master of counterfeit. So it should not surprise us that there are a lot of things that appear to be “good” but are not—not even close. The prophet Isaiah warns us in Isaiah 5—
Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!
Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
and shrewd in their own sight!
From Isaiah chapter 6, we see that there are not only counterfeits, but there are complete inversions, relabeling what God calls good as evil, and calling what is light as darkness. And these counterfeits and lies are increasing. We need to be aware and alert. Even so come Lord Jesus.
We have warnings in scripture of actions that have the appearance of godliness but which deny and lack it’s power—1 Timothy 3, and descriptions of the last days—2 Peter 3, and many more. And in Romans 1, verse 18 and following:
“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.” Suppress the truth!– Actively suppress the truth, not just tell lies.
We must not be deceived. Rather we must be discerning. We are in a spiritual battle—there is intense spiritual warfare—light versus darkness, good versus evil, truth versus lies. There always have been spiritual battles. But for some on this forum, particularly in previous discussions, it seems that it is simply an issue of academic credentials versus the unsophisticated naysayers—the perhaps well intended but uneducated and ill informed.
Let’s talk about justice .
All true justice is God’s justice, but there are counterfeit “justices” that are anything but just. And often when we see a modifier like “social,” we have an unbiblical and perverted justice.
All true compassion is God’s compassion. All real love comes from God. God is the source of all truth and goodness and life and light and liberty and purity and holiness.
Then by what standard can we measure claims of justice?
God’s Word is the standard, and God’s Word alone. A simple believer who studies the Bible and is guided by and relies on the Holy Spirit can more easily discern true justice from counterfeit justice that the most acclaimed PhDs in the most prestigious universities. See John 16:13. “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.”
Another measure is the results. Proverbs 14:12—
There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.
It is not just that there is the genuine and the counterfeit. The genuine gives an opportunity to be reconciled to God, bringing light, liberty, lasting joy, and eternal life. When you see these, you know it is of God. The counterfeit distracts and turns us away from the real and true answers to our needs, and brings death, despair, darkness, destruction, bondage, fear and eternal separation from God. When we see these other results, we know that it is evil and even from Satan.
So we can tell from the fruit what is at the root. If the fruit is good, then the root is good. If the fruit is bad, then the root is bad and evil.
The contrast of biblical compassion with government compassion
In Portland where I live, the programs for the homeless and drug addicted through Salvation Army, Union Gospel Mission and Portland Rescue Mission are several times more effective than public programs in that a far higher percentage the individuals in these faith based programs are off the street and employed after five years. And the cost of the biblically based programs is only a small fraction of what is spent through Government programs. And of course—the obligatory disclaimer—faith based programs don’t work for everyone, often because not everyone acknowledges or follows biblical teaching. Nor do public programs fail for everyone.
Of course, whenever specific examples are given, some may nitpick—“but look at this, and whataboutthat?” Of course, of course. God works through fallible and weak and sinful people—His people, so there are often examples of problems. And throughout the Bible, we see God bringing about his purposes even through evil people. But until Jesus comes to rule on the earth, there will never be complete and perfect justice.
Here’s another example: In 1970, the percentage of intact black families was slightly greater than that of white families. Although far behind, the economic and academic progress of blacks was faster than for whites. Then came the Great Society and other government interventions. The result—shattered families, young men without fathers in their homes, prisons filled with black men. The Great Society was touted to be compassionate, but look at the results of enticing people onto the government plantation—broken families, deception, drug addiction, death, despair, dependency and darkness—certainly not a work of God.
What about separation of church and state?
We are told government programs “cannot include religion”—the so called constitutional requirement of separation of church and state. As a result these programs ignore our essential spiritual nature. This creates a spiritual vacuum which must and will be filled.
It is not that government is free of religion. The secular religion of humanism et al is substituted. And since humanism is the only religion which is not a religion, it is the only religion that can be used in government programs. And because these are at the heart spiritual issues, and yet God is rejected, the end result is always worse in the aggregate than where we began. Humanism and other secular religions become our official state religion(s).
Summing it up
Compare biblical compassion, practiced by Christian to government welfare programs. Long term results in changed lives are multiplied times more effective with Christ centered programs. Counterfeit compassion draws people away from facing their true need—restoration of their relationship with God. An ounce of Christian compassion and love brings far more hope than a pound of God-free government programs.
Again, the obligatory disclaimer-I am not saying that no good came from the Great Society or other government programs. I am sure that we can point to many people who were affected positively. Nor I am not saying that good can only come from faith based programs. Of course, or course, it is all much more complex just this simple example. But let’s not do whatabout, whatabout, whatabout ad naseum.
I am simple asking us to take a look at the net results. Over 50 years and trillions of dollars later, are there stronger families, less poverty, less incarceration, more equity? Less? Has there been real progress on the whole? It doesn’t look like it.
Humanism is one of Satan’s counterfeits. And he uses it to great advancement in his program to destroy humankind. And yet we turn to the academics with their advanced education and government bureaucrats with their great influence. Many of these have no room for God, reject biblical wisdom, and even deny his existence and flout his laws. The result of their “wisdom” is further destruction of souls who were made in the image of God. At the same time we ignore the biblically based warnings of humble servants of God because the lack the “required credentials.” (And don’t say that this shows I am anti-education. I wholeheartedly support the right kind of education—that which honors biblical truth.)
And let’s diffuse another false dichotomy posed in some of these threads. No, you don’t have to believe everything I do to get to heaven, and visa versa. Our eternal destiny—everyone’s eternal destiny depends on this and this alone: Those who put their trust in Jesus as Savior will have eternal life in God’s presence. Those who reject salvation through Jesus will experience eternal death apart from the presence of God.
Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come
I need no other argument,
I need no other plea;
It is enough that Jesus died,
And that He died for me.
On one occasion they hung 13 Indians in honour of Christ and the 12 disciples, on a gibbet just low enough for their toes to touch the ground, then disembowelled them and burnt them alive.
Symbolic and typical of their demonic (sorry demons!) behaviour which resulted in the genocide of 95% of the one hundred million population of South America. Which shows the relationship between social justice and Christianity.
Can you direct me to an online resource about that event? Thanks.
I love asking the broken, dispossessed addicts I work with whether they chose their parents. Or to be paranoid schizophrenes.
Unfortunately, Phil, your true words are regularly interpreted to mean that Christians are to christianize secular governments and societies by means of power, a worldly commodity and tool. Jesus, however, served others from a position of powerlessness and obedience to God, demonstrating how we should as well.
In a representative democracy, where we have the opportunity to participate in the governing, we cannot make christianizing our government and society our goal. That is not the same as disciple-making, which cannot be accomplished by means of government or power. Those who take roles in representative democracies must be there to serve the people who are governed, to work for justice and mercy, to ensure equal representation under the law—for everybody, all of them.
Social justice — all of it at any time — is not the Gospel, is not about redemption. It is how God commands us to be toward and treat other humans, who bear his image. It is keeping the law. Which is not Gospel.
As we are commanded to practice justice socially, open-fisted generosity, fairness, hospitality in both Testaments, we have no excuse to demur, “Well, that really isn’t the Gospel.”
When Christians finally practice social justice, we will finally be obeying the commands of the one we claim as Lord. The pagans are way ahead of us.
This is simply wrong. Social justice is about sharing power, which means that those who have had it the longest are way past overdue in spreading theirs around.
When one spends one’s entire existance in a place of relative power, it feels like persecution to have that power legislated more fairly.
If christians really had been using worldly power to accomplish the things God commands us to do in societies, we would be seen as odd but beautifully loving. Alas, we have used it historically to dominate and subjugate; and now we feel persecuted, when minority groups demand equal protection under the law.
This is because the people who most need the help of social justice still have little to no power. There is no comparison in wearing a Black Lives Matter t-shirt at a rally where you might just get lynched to having a seat or many in the Senate, an endless stream of dark money from a super pac looking to advance the “morals” of the evangelical right.
So, you’re good with including all religious law in the social justice movement? That’s the option here: all or none. Constitutionally, we don’t get preferential treatment, because we’re christians.
Maybe it’s time to set up a committee to get moving on the Orange Catholic Bible.
And, as @T_aquaticus mentioned, legislating it would be quite tricky, at least for christians, who want to obey the frequently repeated commands to practice social justice in the Bible. Enforcement of the worship of the God of the Bible would be pretty challenging. And what is the punishment? How to deal with 2CVs? Government requirements to paint over all depictions of God? Run that past a few Catholoics or Orthodox.
Yep. Along with all kinds of other racially and socially motivated injustices.
Mark, you kind-hearted idealist. That would be rejected as “liberal” by the very people it would be intended to inform.
And how FEW pushed against it? In such cases, apathy is support for injustice. Not looking and doing nothing allows the system to continue as it has been doing.
Sorry, man, but I wouldn’t have to be a feminist, if it weren’t for the patriarchy.
It’s a shame that it takes Marx to provide the social and economic structure needed for women to have the level of self-determination that the smaller half of the species enjoys — rather than the principles Jesus taught and lived, promoted through our brothers in Christ.
Ummmm. That’s just nonsense.
So what’s this then?
Luke 4:18-19
Amplified Bible
18
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me (the Messiah),
Because He has anointed Me to preach the good news to the poor.
He has sent Me to announce release (pardon, forgiveness) to the captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed (downtrodden, bruised, crushed by tragedy),
19
to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord [the day when salvation and the favor of God abound greatly].”
Isaiah 61:1
King James Version
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Also, when one spends one’s entire existance in a place of relative power, one stops noticing spending one’s entire existence in a place of relative power.
How many people get offended/triggered by any suggestion whatsoever that they may just be privileged? Start to list all the hardships in their lifes instead? And how many are happy to just simple say “yes, I am privileged”?
So here’s another problem: if you don’t even notice your privilege, and then someone is trying to ‘take it away’, it’s obvious it’s not going to go smoothly.
That’s made me think of all these women who complain about feminist. I see, so they would be happy for example, to be put away in asylum on their husbands/father say so? And when can we put to bed the absolute myth that women going to work ‘destroyed the family’ and lowered standard of living? As if women didn’t always work…and hey, wasn’t life in the 19C really luxurious compared to now.
Jesus didn’t support feminism … all the apostles were men.
Galatians 3:28-29
@Klax, I’m afraid if I take this up right now, I won’t have time to give it the thought I expect to need to give it. I don’t expect, once I do take it up, there will be a lot of rest. I am legally bound to a project I had hoped to begin today, now that the girls are back in school and I have a good chunk of the day alone with my brain.
So this is a truthful request to delay, not a dodge. If my eyes keep up with the reading, I should be done with the main part of the project by the end of the month and be able to fulfill my obligation.
Although I am no psychohistorian, I expect to be thoroughly bested. But I’d like to participate well, in spite of my expectations.
KJD
Absolutely correct, but we also are responsible for using the position and power given us in an ethical and moral way consistent with Christian ideals in the way government treats people. We must do that since:
As the old saying goes, some people have to hit home runs in order to score in life, but some people start out on third base. There is little doubt that poverty is a barrier to success for many people in this country. Cancel culture is way, way down the list of barriers.
That would require financial investment, something that isn’t too popular in much of the electorate.
It is also wrong to cover up and excuse those bad actions. I would say the focus needs to be on individual freedoms and equal access to a path of success.
What would Jesus think of how we treat immigrants at our border requesting asylum?
The roots go back to slavery, well before either of them were born.
Could you give examples of what you are talking about?
We have God’s infallible and eternal word to answer this question. God has made nations and given them boundaries. Acts 17:26 , NLT. From one man he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand when they should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries. Nations and boundaries are not an invention of human government. They are ordained by God.
Of course, we should treat every person with dignity and respect. But the problem at our borders is at its heart much more than people arriving and seeking asylum. And these asylum seekers are being enticed with deceptive promises of a better life.
And whether you approve what our current administration is doing, our current administration is violating the very laws they have sworn to uphold. Not only are they lawless; lies flow out of their mouths.
What is really happening at our borders? There is drug trafficking, resulting in thousands of deaths. There are thousands of women being raped on the journey to our borders. There are hundreds dying. Criminal gangs and terrorists are entering unchecked. Americans just across the border are being overwhelmed and terrorized in their own towns and even their homes by gangs of criminals. Open your eyes and see.
When we see confusion, death, despair, destruction, and deception–and this is what we see, we know that is the work of Satan, and not of God.
Much of what is happening at the border is evil and destruction posing as virtue and compassion–the inversion that Isaiah calls out and identifies in Isaiah 6. We must not approve of anything that is not of God.
“Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” -Colossians 4:6
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