Well, all right. If you change your mind, I’ll have an interested ear.
Jesus shows his desire for his Father’s exaltation and sets the example for us in the very first petition of the Lord’s Prayer, “Hallowed be thy name!”, so I’m not sure where the problem is.
Perhaps it is for you to tell me what phantom “problems” you are chasing?
The phantom I am chasing is the thought of a reasonable conversation with you. 
That is up to you.
My message in this thread has been that there is middle ground be the vengeful god of infernalism and the Hakuna matata god of universalism in the God who chose love and freedom over power and control. It is only natural that Phillipians 2:6-8 would be one of the first passages I would quote in support of this.
He is still the Sovereign God of providence, whom, as I recall, you decry.
I have little doubt my understanding of the sovereignty and providence of God is not the same as yours.
If you want me to explains something I said, then you need to quote or link what it is you want me to explain. Apparently your vague misunderstandings of me are the phantoms you are chasing at this moment. And since these only exist in your own mind then you can hardly expect me to do anything about them.
Why did you quote Phillipians 2:6-8? Was that a misunderstanding?
There would not be much point in that, thanks.
Mitchell, do you believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus does anything actually spiritually (magical) in a person. Do they literally become born of God, become a real new creation when they repent and fully trust in Jesus? Does His act on the cross and His resurrection cause their spirit to die and become actually united to Him, in contrast to just the person changing their attitude? Does a person actually get born again? Now, in this lifetime.
I believe in spiritual things but I don’t believe in literal magic, and I certainly don’t equate spiritual with magical. I think divine magic is particularly nonsensical. I believe that the notion of magic comes from the experience of infancy when by merely crying out, someone more powerful and knowledgeable makes our discomfort go away. But obviously there is no one for God to cry out to. Obviously, anything God does must come from His own knowledge and ability. In other words, just because God does something doesn’t mean there is no asking how, as if all it takes is for God to make a wish or give a command. And God’s omnipotence doesn’t mean He can do whatever you say by whatever means you care to dictate – logical coherence applies.
So can God literally shape something from clay and make it come “alive?” Probably – though it may take alterations of the laws of nature to do so. But the results are not independent of the means. In that case the result would not be a human being but a golem. Likewise, the redemption of human beings comes from the work of God upon us in our experiences to change how we think, feel, and desire. And the substance of our salvation is the removal of the self-destructive habits of sin, and as the Bible says over and over again, to write the law of God on our hearts (i.e. the good habits which liberate our potential so that we can come alive and learn all God has to teach us).
Jesus’ death and resurrection was to overcome some fundamental misunderstandings which were in the way of a good, healthy, and proper relationship with God. The cross was to teach us that God will do anything to help us, and the problem was always us entirely – that our sins would crucify anyone God sent to help us. Thus we are called to repent and to change, but it is only our own perversity that we quite often do not change unless the innocent suffer because of us. The resurrection was to teach us that physical death is not the end, for our spirit can be reborn to life more substantial and real than anything physical.
It was first by Adam that we were born of God with an inheritance of mind from God speaking to him. But then this was corrupted by self-destructive habits. Jesus was the second Adam and through Him came a restoration the inheritance by which we can literally be reborn as children of God, when we put our trust in Him.
Is there some power of necromancy in the divine-human sacrifice of Jesus on the cross? No. Does God require some magical spell in order to forgive people? No. Can the innocent actually pay for the crimes of the guilty? No. Are Christians magically transformed so they are now without sin? No. Does God really have to pay something to Satan in order to save us from him? No. There is certainly a great deal of truth to all these metaphors in the Bible, but taking them literally is a mockery, like making Jesus’ parable of the sower to be about agriculture.
Is repenting of ones sins and the beginning of a personal relationship with Jesus an important tool in God’s arsenal for restoring a life-giving relationship with God to remove our self-destructive habits and write the law of God on our hearts so we do what is right for its own sake? Yes. It was blaming God for our problems which separated us from God, and it is sin which causes the spirit to die. The death and resurrection of Jesus overcomes that separation so that God can work in our lives to overcome the bad habits which are destroying us. But that takes a great deal of time, and it is referred to as sanctification in the Bible. We are reborn to a new relationship with God, but that is only the beginning of a life of faith, in which there can be no entitlement.
Faith is not is an agreement to a set of doctrines interpreting the Bible in some approved way. That is a Gnostic gospel of salvation by knowledge of sound doctrine. I believe in this stuff for one reason only – because I believe it to be correct. It does not earn me anything. This is not about making a deal with God that you can be saved if you believe the right things, perform rituals in the correct way, obey enough commandments, or do enough good works. This is about God changing us to be the kind of people who inhabit a heavenly kingdom – because as it is we will make any place we go to into a living hell.
Jesus Christ ,this thread is all over the place😅
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I deserved to be executed for my crimes against God. Justice demanded my execution. I had no hope, the Law of God declared me guilty. By my thoughts, words, actions and very nature I was an enemy of God. Those who acted as my friends (my sins) sought my death. Powerless to free myself, I was a condemned man. Then God showed mercy to me by doing that which was necessary to free me, HE EXECUTED ME! Yes, God executed me which set me free. He took me into the boosem of Jesus and nailed me to a cross. In Jesus I died for my crimes, my sins. But in Jesus I was carried through death and judgment, then I was raised up to life and seated with Him in Heaven. Through Jesus I died to sin, Satan and the world. The very thing that I deserved (execution) was the very thing that delivered me, but only because it was done through Jesus. I was crucified to the world. I died to sin and was raised up to life in Jesus. Born again, a new creation, a child of the Father. Jesus who knew no sin, became my sin. And through His resurrection I was raised to eternal life. THAT IS GOOD NEWS! It is no longer I that lives but Christ that lives in me and the life I now live, I live by dependence (faith) in the Son of God. Through the righteous and merciful judgement of God I now stand as a free man.
The cross of Jesus is my death. His resurrection is mine. In this life.
He paid the ransom to God for my freedom. The debt I owed (my death) He paid. My inner man, the hidden man of the heart, my spirit has been born of God, NOW!!! It is through the new creation He has made me, that His salvation is working in me, NOW!!! I am a New Creation in Christ Jesus.
Do you know this SALVATION? Is Christ in you? Is the Father living in you? Are you born of God, NOW?
[quote=“mitchellmckain, post:149, topic:44478”]
Is there some power of necromancy in the divine-human sacrifice of Jesus on the cross?
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By Jesus becoming sin for us, He took on our guilt. He was the sacrifice lamb that was offered in our place. Through His blood we have been redeemed. His life offered as ours, sets us free from sin and the powers of this age. Through Him we are more than conquerors , in this life.
He who knew no sin, became sin, so that we would become the rightiousness of God through Him. That is in this life. Christ living in our newly created spirits empowers us to be free from our old master sin. Through Jesus becoming my sin, then raising from the dead, I have died to sin and have been raised a New Creation. It’s all right there in the scriptures. Paul lays it out very plainly.
The payment was made to God, not to Satan. God required the death of the rebellious. Only by the shedding of blood is there the remission of sins.
Not taking what Jesus actually did in His death and resurrection literally is a mockery. It is rejection of the way that God delivers people from their sin and His just wrath. The cross of Christ is our salvation, rejection of it is our condemnation. The New Creation that is created through His death and resurrection is the writing of God’s laws on our hearts. It is actually being born again, born of the Father and it happens in this life.
Faith is a trust and reliance on what God did for us through the death and resurrection of Jesus. It is not an example, it is the act of our execution in Christ and a new spirit being birthed in us, now. Unless a man is born again, he can not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That happens now, in this life.
I will only boast in the cross of Christ, for through it I have been crucified to the world and the world to me.
We must repent, turn, and believe the Good News.
Jesus did not literally become sin. Again this is a metaphor which Xtians have twisted using literalism to transform this into the black magic of human sacrifice.
And this is the reason why… the rhetoric of borrowed righteousness to justify entitlement. In this way Xtians can make themselves the new Pharisees self-righteously lording it over others by covering their sins with a whitewash of theological righteousness.
A ransom is paid to the one who has you in bondage. So taking this literally leads to all kinds of confusion. So Origen thought the ransom was paid to Satan. Of course many objected to this idea because the notion that God in Jesus must pay a ransom to Satan is outrageous. But making this a payment to God says that God is the one who has us in bondage which is even worse. The truth is neither because this is a metaphor only and no ransom is literally paid to anyone. That is the nature of metaphors they only work up to point and then they fall apart if you take them too far.
We are in bondage but not to God or the devil but to sin. And getting out from this bondage so difficult it certainly does seem to require a price of blood and tears to do so. Very often we do not change until the innocent have suffered considerably because of them. But to call this a literal payment is downright perverse. It is the same with Jesus on the cross. There is no doubt whatsoever that our sin put Jesus on that cross and likewise there is no doubt that Jesus was willing. On the other hand, we do not praise those like Judas, Pontius Pilate, or Jews calling out “crucify him” for their role in this. It is the same kind of metaphor we use when we say our soldiers gave their lives for our freedom. We would not give thanks to those who killed them so that they could make this sacrifice any more than we give thanks to Judas and Pontius Pilate.
That boasting is as perverse as boasting of all those who have suffered because of your sins. It is a way of twisting faith into entitlement which is the very opposite of faith to claim salvation as one of your accomplishments in life. Salvation is not and never will be something that belongs to you. Salvation is the work of God and He is not obligated to do so. Not by your recitations of scripture can you fabricate contracts to bind God, nor with your theological legalisms can you appease God. That is the same old religion of idols and paganism rebranded.
Indeed! This much is correct.
We must repent of our sins – the bad habits which are destroying us. For our salvation is the removal of these self-destructive habits and the restoration of a relationship with a living God. To this end we rejoice in the good news, that we have seen God in Jesus, that we have seen God giving everything for our salvation, and we have seen in Jesus the resurrection to eternal life.
You have yet to understand the Gospel. The Law, Jesus and apostles revealed the truth of what I have stated. It is Paul who said he would only boast in the cross of Christ. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin. It is the grace of God that the blood of Jesus was offered up in our place. The New Covenant is in His blood. He offered it to God in the Heavenly Holy of Holies. He is the High Priest of the New Covenant, a priest without beginning or end as Hebrews states. If a person rejects this, they reject the way God has provided to atone and cleans them from sin. They become a person who is trying to work their way to cleans themselves from their sin, which is no longer grace but works.
Rev:5-9 “for thou was slain and has redeemed us to God by thy blood”
Far from Him, the good news in person, that’s for sure, and His clear simple message of outrageous universal reconciliation.
[[2Co 5:21/KJV]] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Good News indeed. Christ became our sin. The sacrfice Lamb became our sin. Its not that He just took our individual sins to the cross, He became sin for us. That is why when He was executed as a sinner we were too. So we died to sin and to the world. That is what sets us free from them. His resurrection then gave us a new nature in our inward man.
When we believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead and confess our allegiance to Him by declaring Him as our Lord we will be made safe. We have placed all our hope and confidence in Him. Not in our ability to perform well enough to change ourselves but in His power working in us to conform us into His likeness. Though obedience is necessary because if we love Him we will obey Him, as He said, but it is Spirit and power enabling us to walk in the law of love that He has written on our hearts. It is christ living in us that leads us in the paths of righteousness. It is Christ in us that empowers us to follow Him. Without His blood, sacrifice, death, resurrection and Spirit we have no hope. It is not burdensome for me to repeat these things for it brings glory to God, it is a confession of my faith and my Lord and it is the power of God for the salvation to all wo believe them.
I traced back this conversation from Cody’s reply because it interested me. I wasn’t sure what cattle truck was being referred to but the image I had was being carted off to the fires of hell. What would a Christian do when he finds himself in that situation, in a dump truck headed for the place where their contents go into the lake of fire? It is a question I have essentially answered before, but the imagery here inspires me. So what will you do in that truck or in the fires of hell itself (when you are not screaming)?
I do not think Cody’s answer would be such a bad one even if it is the truck to hell rather than to a Nazi furnace. It is not the answer I gave, but it is not too bad. What I expect from many Christians is a lot of whining and complaining that they do not belong in the truck, for they did what their church pastor told them they needed to do or what they read in the Bible telling them to do. They just are like that man in Matthew 19 who was looking for what was enough to make salvation one of their accomplishments in life. “With men this is impossible,” was the answer of Jesus in verse 26. By now it should be clear that I do not believe in any such entitlements. There is no enough.
If I find myself in that truck to hell or in the fires of hell itself, I will not be whining and complaining. I have rejected any sense of entitlement – not from ritual, or scripture, from my beliefs, nor from a litany of good deeds. For no matter how I may hope that God will redeem me from my sins, I have no delusions of entitlement from some theologically fabricated “get out of jail free” card in my pocket. I have not tried to bargain away my intelligence or integrity in exchange for some delusion of reprieve as if confusing God with the devil in the making of such deals. No. If I am in such a truck, I would not question that I am right where I belong.
So if I am not whining and complaining, then what will I be doing? If I look up ahead and see Cody preaching the gospel to the others in the truck, I will have no contempt for that! Not like I would for the whiners, reciting Bible scriptures like lawyers and scribes to justify themselves. What I will be doing is praising God for His will be done which I know is right and just. I did not give my allegiance and love to God just because of some promise of what someone or scripture said He could do for me. I gave my love and loyalty to God because of who He is – His character, His righteousness, His compassion, His wisdom, and His love. I truly saw in Him what is right and would not trade my respect crawling before a devil or some soul destroying monster out of fear, hoping that my fawning and flattery would earn me His favor. I certainly would not take my just condemnation as proof that He is a devil as some here seem to do.
Now… if it is really a cattle truck to a Nazi furnace my answer would be a little different. For I do not trust that all which happens is according to the will of God. No, in that case I would be looking for a chance to fight. If I could take down even one of these monsters before I die, it would seem to me that I was leaving the world a little better place for having been here.
More Good News!
Heb 4-13 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
The word of God is living; it can divide between the soul and the spirit. Those who are born of God are New Creations; their spirits have been born again from above. Our born anew spirit has God’s law written in it. What needs to happen is that our souls, our minds need to be renewed so that we can live in the freedom that was given to us at our new birth.
Rom 8:5- but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. 9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Since the carnal mind is hostile to God, then all that we think and from that, all that we say and do, should be controlled by the Spirit. This is the freedom that Jesus worked for us through His cross.
So with this in mind let us look at just one aspect of many people’s lives and see if the carnal mind is in control or the newly created spirit is in control.
Let’s take the topic of ENTERTAINMENT. Is a person’s entertainment spirit lead or controlled by the carnal mind? TV, movies, music and books, are they godly or carnal and if they are carnal they therefore not subject to God. Do they cause you to grow into the fullness of Christ or put you to sleep in this wicked age?
Rom 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”
Is your entertainment filled with these characteristics of those who hate God? If it is than cut it off. Pluck out the eye that offends and cast it away. Do your shows either show people fornicating or insinuating they are going to? Do you watch adultery? Are you entertained by, wickedness, evil, greed, depravity, envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice, gossips, slander, God haters, insolence, arrogance, boastful people, children who disobey their parents, faithlessness, heartless and ruthless people? If so then you need to repent and renew your mind with the Word of God, come in line with it. Those who do such things and those who approve of those who practice them are following the same spirit. That goes for the songs you listen to and the books you read.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
Now is the time to hear the voice of the Spirit. Today is the day of Salvation. Repent and let the Father and the Son deliver you from the works of darkness. That is why Jesus went through death and resurrection. To deliver you from this present wicked age.
[[Mat 5:20/KJV]] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
The righteousness of the Pharisees included the keeping of the Law, to some degree, they did add commands that would nullify some commands of God though. The righteousness that we must have is one that God grants us through the literal new birth of our spirit that happens through the cross of Jesus. Through His cross we die to the Law and sin and are raised a new creation, born again by the will of the Father. This righteousness is the righteousness of God that comes through Christ and it is through that righteousness abiding in us that God’s grace, power, gifts work in us, conforming our souls and puts to death the deeds of the flesh.
The Pharisees had somewhat obedience to the Law but their nature remined the same, through Jesus our inner man has been born from above, the righteousness of God dwelling within us, a new nature. Through the cross of Christ we have died to sin, we have been a set free. So, let us live our lives in loving submission to the Father of our spirits. Let us place our affections on things above not on things of this present age, where Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father.