What is "the fall" when I can't accept a historical Adam and Eve?

@AdCaelumEo

THE FALL is not a biblical position … it is a Church Fathers tradition … and only just barely within the arc of the Fathers.

Words have meaning. If it were a FALL, then you are imputing that Adam and Eve could no longer approach the Tree of Life because of the holy force of the tree, and their corrupted incapacity to approach it. But this is not what happened. God tells us that.

The Fall is not universal to Christianity - - there are several major denominations that do not characterize humanity in this way.

When you compound bad exegesis with an INSISTENCE that we should ignore the laws of physics … well, yes… I’m seriously saying this tradition is nothing but a toxic Christian error.

Well then I strongly disagree with you.

Good day.

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If the Orthodox communions of the world (many millions) can accept your disagreement … then who am I not to accept it as well!

[THE ORIGINAL SIN COMPONENT OF THE FALL]
“Eastern Orthodoxy rejects the idea that the guilt of original sin is passed down through generations. It bases its teaching in part on Ezekiel 18:20 that says a son is not guilty of the sins of his father. The Church teaches that, in addition to their conscience and tendency to do good, men and women are born with a tendency to sin due to the fallen condition of the world.”

" It follows Maximus the Confessor and others in characterising the change in human nature as the introduction of a “deliberative will” (θέλημα γνωμικόν) in opposition to the “natural will” (θέλημα φυσικόν) created by God which tends toward the good. Thus, according to St Paul in his epistle to the Romans, non-Christians can still act according to their conscience."

"Orthodoxy believes that, while everyone bears the consequences of the first sin (that is, death), only Adam and Eve are guilty of that sin.[7]

“Adam’s sin isn’t comprehended only as disobedience to God’s commandment, but as a change in man’s hierarchy of values from theocentricism to anthropocentrism, driven by the object of his lust, outside of God, in this case the tree which was seen to be “good for food”, and something “to be desired” (see also theosis, seeking union with God).”[8]

FOOTNOTES:

[7] Q & A – Original Sin. OCA. Retrieved on 2011-10-30.
http://oca.org/questions/teaching/original-sin

[8] Eastern Orthodox Catechism, published by the Russian Orthodox Church. Accessed February 16, 2008.
http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx

I don’t think Eastern Orthodoxy is even Christian anymore. They don’t have a biblical gospel. Call me narrow-minded or whatever, but the Bible is pretty explicit about federal headship and the concept of Adam’s sin being imputed to all of his progeny. Romans 4-5 and 1 Corinthians 15 are both clear, didactic texts.

Wow… say no more…

The Orthodox are not even Christian anymore? You have pretty tough standards … the Mormons should fear your wrath?

Do you handle snakes?
Speak in tongues?
Believe that Romans 9 explains how God makes some humans to suffer damnation?

These things are also pretty explicit … as well as putting to death people who work on the Sabbath …

Mormons have never been Christian. Even their own leaders have historically denied being Christian until very recently.

Yes, I have tough standards. There is one gospel, and Eastern Orthodoxy doesn’t teach it. If you don’t have the gospel, you don’t have the right to be called a Christian.

Your condescension is not welcome. I said on my other post that I am doctrinally Reformed, that is, historically Protestant. I hold to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith as an accurate restatement of my beliefs.

You still haven’t told me your theological background.

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@AdCaelumEo

My background? Oh, it’s not secret. I’ve posted on it a few times before.

I’m a Unitarian Universalist … old New England tradition, aye? One of my favorite sayings about our tradition is that the Unitarians and the Universalists merged when they realized their similarities:

Universalists believed God was so good, He would never send humans to Hell; while
the Unitarians believed HUMANS were so good, He would never send them to Hell.
So… we merged.

As for condescension… frankly I don’t think you are suited to accept Evolution as a scientific reality - - I don’t believe there are many Christians who believe God used Evolution AND that there are people who have been practicing Christianity for centuries … but are STILL not REALLY Christian!

Trashing the Orthodox millions just seems so very wrong in so many ways…

And why would the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus be UNAVAILABLE to Mormons? - - who I find to be amazingly sincere and devoted people???

No wonder you won’t subject yourself to biblical authority when it comes to the fall of man. If I told you that Jesus said people who didn’t believe in him would be in hell, you’d object to that. If I told you that Jesus was God, you’d object to that too. Even after demonstrating both from the Scriptures. We’re polar opposites, my friend.

I don’t doubt it. I’m an anomaly on other subjects as well. But one point of order: I was especially careful to state that Eastern Orthodoxy as a theological system does not have the gospel. I believe that there are those within Orthodoxy who are saved and have eternal life, but not because of their theology; no, in spite of it. It’s the system that’s incapable of saving.

The atonement is available to all who will put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. But Mormons don’t fit that category, because what they believe about God and Jesus and mankind is totally anti-biblical. You’re a universalist, so according to you, everyone gets to heaven anyway. I’m not; I’m an exclusivist. God saves people through the atoning work of Jesus Christ, but that atonement was meant only for a specific group of people whom the Father had previously given to the Son (see John 6). It is these who will put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ for salvation and it is those for whom Jesus intercedes.

But, you don’t agree with any of that. Because you don’t have any biblical foundations. Sure, you can pluck a passage here or there that may appear to give some level of credibility to your position, but in the end, your position is not biblical. Sorry. :slight_smile:

We have strayed too far afield. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the OP. I will refrain from posting further unless I have something to respond with that is related to the topic at hand.

Blessings,
Jay

@AdCaelumEo

It’s quite likely that BioLogos will never be appealing to the kind of Christians who think that Orthodox Churches only produces saved Christians as EXCEPTIONS…

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Yes, George would object, and so would I! And God saw to it that both I and my agnostic friend, Eric, would not be misled by that insidious, Satan-inspired belief–a belief that Jesus himself would reject. If you would like details, see “the Miracle of the Panel truck”, in one of my posts on this Forum. Or I can send it to you PDF.
Al Leo

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I would not object.

Wait so you believe in Satan? But not hell. If no one goes to hell, then what is it that Satan is trying to accomplish in your belief system?

Jamie, you said that all non-Christians (those who didn’t believe in Jesus, perhaps because they never heard of him) would end up in hell. Just because I don’t believe that statement does not mean I reject the believe in hell. But consider this: we humans use words to express mental constructsideas that need not be identical to each person who conceives them. I use the term, Satan, to express something evil, something that defeats the purpose of humankind–but not necessarily a personified being. I use the term, hell, to express a condition or an existence that is contrary to what God sees as ideal for us. It may be an actual place of suffering (traditionally a place of fire and brimstone). I don’t know. But I do believe in a loving God, and creating so many humans who (you predict) are going to hell, seems ‘out of character’ for him.

Bottom line: I know I must have displeased my Creator many times during my long lifetime, but I feel sure he loves me regardless. Jesus life is the most convincing testimony of that. I feel fortunate to have been born into a Christian family, but I have personally known many who have not professed Christ but whom he must love nonetheless. Why have you not asked to see my post, “The Miracle of the Panel Truck” which proves my point?
Al Leo

There are several verses in the New Testament about this topic. Paul says that the heavens declare the glory of God that men are without excuse. Jesus says no one comes to the father except through me. Now, Paul also says that sin is not charged on anyone’s account where there is no law. And of course, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Hell is separation from God.

I wonder what you think the purpose of humankind is. I don’t think the purpose of humankind to be happy. I don’t think the purpose of humankind is to be free from suffering. I don’t think the purpose of humankind is to have fun. The purpose of humankind is to love God. That’s it. Good things come from that, In this life and in the next. In Psalms it says take delight in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart.

“What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?” That is the eternal perspective. As is the more uncomfortable, “And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.”

Yes, God loves each and every one of us. Yet we repay that love with sin. And yet God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever shall believe in him, shall not perish, but will have eternal life. But I think you’re missing the point. We are meant to love God. The first commandment is love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. When someone doesn’t do that, that is what we call sin. Someone can do good works, they can feed the poor, they can care for the sick, they can give everything they own, but if they don’t love God they are not fulfilling their One purpose.

Perhaps you’ve loved someone who didn’t love you back. Perhaps you’ve been betrayed by someone You loved. Why is it that the people we love most are the ones who are most able to hurt us? If God loves us infinitely, then how much do we cause God to suffer when we sin. Infinitely. That is what the cross represents. Jesus suffered for our sins. Suffered. Suffered. An infinite God. Why would the suffering of hell be eternal? You’re asking? You don’t understand why loving God could allow people to suffer? That is a selfish way of thinking.

Why would God create people to go to hell? He didn’t create people to go to hell, he created people so that They could choose to love him. Why would he create us at all, giving us free will even though he knew that that would mean that we would be free to reject him. And yet without free will there can be no real love. We all know this. You cannot compel someone to love you. That is not what love is. It is God’s will that none will perish, and that all will have eternal life, but how Should they have eternal life if they do not love God? Do you expect God to suffer eternally on their account? You would sentence God to eternal suffering. God is not mocked.

For the people who never hear about Jesus, I think they are judged on what is revealed to them. I think that the idea of Jesus is not contained exclusively within the name of Jesus and the walls of the church, but For those of us who know of Jesus there is no alternative. I think we are all given a choice. We just have to want to love God, and God is willing to meet us there. But if we don’t even do that. I think you are picking and choosing from the things that Jesus said.

@sue and Others:

Here is my most recent thread … to explain the purpose of the ATONEMENT …

Just as the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus atones for all sin both past and present, so to the sin of the Adam and Eve have an effect that both precedes their own existence and continues after it.

Maybe the garden was a safe place, perhaps a peaceful valley, that they lived in, so as to allow them to make their choice while separated from the evil in the world. Of course this was temporary. God already knew what they would choose.

God is not limited by linear time. The future sin of Adam is accounted for in the foundations of the Earth. Something along the lines of “God knows what you’re going to do before you do it”.

Another point is that if you read closely you notice that Adam and Eve are lied to by the serpent. By eating the “fruit” they gained knowledge of what it is to do evil. Knowledge of guilt and shame. Only through Christ can we be free of guilt and shame. But they already had the ability to choose right and wrong.

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