Just as long as you understand that subsets of Christian belief are getting in the way of science education in different parts of the world. Thankfully, people who support science, atheist and theist alike, are banding together to push back against this misplaced animosity towards science.
I think this statement I overblown - science education has continued as it has. The conflicts are derived mainly from anti-religious activity that has sought to change many norms and practices. In some areas education has become so distorted towards secular/anti-religious view and practices, that parents would rather educate their children at home, rather than send them into a perverse and promiscuous environment, exposing them at a young age to all sorts of unwanted influences.
It is this, and not science, that has caused such concern around the world. I get angry when people such as yourself decide that almighty science is under attack - this is sheer propaganda. Arguments between evolutionists and DI and others, tend to feed into this propaganda.
āThe Louisiana Science Education Act, Act 473 (SB733) of 2008[1] is a controversial law passed by the Louisiana Legislature on June 11, 2008 and signed into law by Governor Bobby Jindal on June 25.[2] The act allows public school teachers to use supplemental materials in the science classroom which are critical of theories such as the theory of evolution and global warming.[3] Louisiana was the first state to have passed a law of this type.[4]ā
I fail to see what this has to do with science class.[quote=āGJDS, post:84, topic:36062ā]
I get angry when people such as yourself decide that almighty science is under attack - this is sheer propaganda. Arguments between evolutionists and DI and others, tend to feed into this propaganda.
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See the Louisiana Science Education Act above. Conservative states are still trying to weaken or eliminate the teaching of evolution (via pseudoscience).
The reason for the concern is that every denomination fears being oppressed by an equally zealous denomination with other ideas: Mormon vs. Baptist, Catholic vs. Congregational and so forth.
The day that religious ideas are allowed to be taught in public schools is the day the Satanists will prevail - - with tax dollars being diverted so that even Satanists must be given their share.
Allowing religious teachings into the schools is the camel nose under the tentā¦
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My remarks deal with the educational institutions that I am familiar with, and these are outside of the US. Since this Louisiana Science Education Act impact on the citizens of that state, I think they should debate it between themselves. That is democracy.
I refer to acts by atheists who have tried legal means to prevent religious people discuss religion in schools, even if non-religious ones can not attend; others who insist on sex education that amounts to pornography and claim parents should not prevent their children from attending, and the list goes on. This is a blatant push by a minority of atheists and anti-religious groups to impose their warped views on others, and when there is push back, the shrieking commences that their freedom is taken from them, that tyrants are preventing this and thatā¦ and a lot of rhubarb etc
I find it surprising you fail to acknowledge this, and instead keep on this fairy tail that science is under attack (and you really mean ToE is criticised), and schools will soon collapse because of this - such views are overblown at best, and smoke screens at worst, to advance the perverse agenda by many anti-religious groups worldwide. If some in the US oppose this, more power to them.
Has anyone done any research on this? It may well be true - but we need more than a hunch!
Just pointing out that science education is under attack in the US.[quote=āGJDS, post:87, topic:36062ā]
I refer to acts by atheists who have tried legal means to prevent religious people discuss religion in schools,
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In the US we have a constitutional amendment which creates a wall of separation between church and state. Using public school funds to teach religion is a violation of that constitutional amendment. I am under the impression that no such statute exists in the UK, so you may not be familiar with it.[quote=āGJDS, post:87, topic:36062ā]
others who insist on sex education that amounts to pornography and claim parents should not prevent their children from attending, and the list goes on. This is a blatant push by a minority of atheists and anti-religious groups to impose their warped views on others, and when there is push back, the shrieking commences that their freedom is taken from them, that tyrants are preventing this and thatā¦ and a lot of rhubarb etc
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All of the sex education courses I have seen are entirely voluntary. In fact, students often have to have their parents sign a permission slip in order for them to attend. I think you are crying wolf on this one.
I know of no creationist research program at any university. I havenāt seen any papers published on creationist research. However, out of curiosity, I took a look at two of the biggest universities that either overtly or covertly state they support creationism: Liberty University and Bob Jones University. Neither of these schools has a PhD program in the biological sciences, or any graduate programs in the natural sciences.
Compare that to Christian schools like Baylor which openly accept evolution, have PhD programs in the natural sciences, and have active research in those subjects.
āEvolution, a foundational principle of modern biology, is supported by overwhelming scientific evidence and is accepted by the vast majority of scientists. Because it is fundamental to the understanding of modern biology, the faculty in the Biology Department at Baylor University, Waco, TX, teach evolution throughout the biology curriculum. We are in accordance with the American Association for Advancement of Scienceās statement on evolution. We are a science department, so we do not teach alternative hypotheses or philosophically deduced theories that cannot be tested rigorously.ā --Department of Biology, Baylor University
If someone wants to dig a bit deeper, the easy way to see if a university is doing research is if they have a PhD program in biology. If they donāt have a PhD program, then chances are they donāt have much research, if any at all.
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That is very convincing! It isnāt exactly what I thought I was asking (because of a difference in the meaning of the word āschoolā in the US and the UK), but still good to know.
What I would like to know is how many young people are being put off science careers because of their creationist upbringing. So my research would choose say 20 Christian schools (pre-university), 10 of which favour creationism and 10 of which favour evolution. Then chart the numbers going on to study science.
That would certainly be an interesting study.
A rough estimate could be built up with calculating a benchmark.
If the 45% of Christian families that are Creationist have 2.2 children (say);
And 50% of those families support Science careers less than average (say);
And the combined effect has an āXā factor influence - - (say 0.083 for the purpose of calculations):
100,000,000 Christian families (< fictional number)
45,000,000 Creationist families (< fictional sample result)
2.2 x 45 million = 99 million ( of course, this would need to be divided up amongst, say 20 years of fertility)
x 0.083 = 8.2 million non-science careers
But Iām sure a better number can be had by starting with how many actually go into science now, each year, and working in the opposite direction!
It may be one step farther removed, but we could also start with the religious affiliations of scientists themselves. This is a bit messier since some scientists could have been raised in an atheist household and later became Christians, and a whole host of other complications. However, the numbers are quite surprising (even to me):
These numbers donāt change much between scientific disciplines, although chemists seem to be the most religious (but still well below the percentage seen in the general public). The biggest difference is seen in the age groups with young scientists being much more likely to believe in God than older scientists.
Do Christians tend to shy away from the sciences as a career? The numbers would seem to suggest that they do. The gap between the general public and scientists is 83% to 33%, respectively. If we are going to pin this on creationism, this would mean that more than half of those raised as Christians were raised with creationism. I donāt know if I believe that. Therefore, the entire reason canāt be creationism, although it may play a role.
The activities of anti-religious groups are extremely well publicised and my remarks in this part of the world are understood.
Urban myths are often understood within certain groups of people, but they are still urban myths.
I am stating facts that have been discussed in the media and newspapers in my part of the world - I fail to see how you read myth in that.
Maybe for the sake of discussion you could give examples of these facts. It would be helpful to have details rather than just stating āit is knownā.
My dear chap, I have said that in my part of the world, these discussions are frequent and this is the first time I have had to get into this extraordinary exchange. If this is not the case with the USA, so be it, I have not questioned this.
Here are some actual numbers from a study of secularism among college students:
Many conservative religionists have posited that higher education itself undermines faith and is the major cause of alienation from religion. We explored the differences among the worldview groups as to the courses of study they were following. Perhaps surprisingly, there was no statistical difference between the patterns of choices of academic majors between the Religious and Secular worldview groups. Among the Secular, 38 percent had chosen science, technology, mathematics, and engineering (STEM), 29 percent social and behavioral sciences, and 30 percent arts and humanities, with 3 percent undecided. In fact, the difference we did discover was between the Spiritual and the other two worldview groups, rather than Religious versus Secular. The Spiritual group was less likely to include STEM majors, probably due to that groupās female skew.
So for the sake of those of us that live in the USA, do you have examples to support your claims?
What examples are you after? Perhaps the only thing that I can suggest is that you use the internet to search for local news in countries outside of the USA and when these matters are printed or telecast, you become familiar with the opinions discussed in public. I have not kept a file, nor am I willing to go through newspapers, internet discussions and TV debates to get into a useless debate with you - just when did I make claims? Why are you seeking a debate? Have you material that would show matters are different to what I have said - if yu do, produce it.