Must we go through this again? BioLogos is a popular platform for people to use to deny the divinity of Jesus.
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Close enough for me:
Through him all things were made, and without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:3
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And the prologue of the Gospel of John. And so on. These have been listed here many, many times.
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Coming in a predominetly Christian site to just argue that Jesus isnt God as you say wont achieve nothing.The arguments for his divinity have been there for centuries.The things Muhhamad did and said from the other hand…
And why for Pete’s sake does it have to be on Holy Saturday, the eve of the resurrection?
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Beginning in the 1900s the (mostly German) progressive churches started to question the Bible as the Religious Text it had long been assumed it was. Almost anybody who has done any study in Christian Theology is aware of the intense scrutiny applied to “debunking” the Scriptures. “Finding the Real Jesus” and all the other "Find The Real…" name you premise here had to be answered.
Evangelical Theologian flocked to the call, and the result was a series of intense studies of the Biblical Manuscripts and searches for all possible sources.
This has resulted in a body of solid work that is accepted to be robust and as complete as possible. Obviously, if you don’t believe in the Evangelical version of Christianity this is not a body of work that is accepted. Yet it has been done. Volumes of Historical, Textual, and Anthropological studies can be read, regardless of “acceptance” of such as valid.
Islam has had no such intensive study by those outside the Islamic faith! The doctrine of “Settled Islam” prevented such research within the faith, and those outside the faith took little notice. It was only in the last few decades, since the rise of Jihad, that such questions began to be asked and studied. My Roommate Jay Smith started in 1995 and gradually became part of a group asking questions of Islam already asked and answered by Christians since the 1900’s.
If I tell you my car is a lemon and list all its faults, it could just be me being unhappy with my car and being critical.
If I show you a list of repair invoices, it is no longer fancy, but fact.
The Critical Critiquing of Christianity has been done and is on the shelves. Islam has nearly nothing, nada, zip, zero on the shelves. Take a look! You’ll find voluminous discussions on “what it means” but literally nothing on critical studies!
I know. I did my M-Div at Azusa Pacific University and spent time at the Claremont Schools of Theology Library…and the Islamic section is one short stack. Very short! The rest of the building is the Christian studies collected since Hobbes and Spinoza!
I personally don’t believe a lot lays on the title. As others have pointed out, Jesus which is actually just Joshua and both are jut romanized versions of Jewish names. The term messiah and savior gets tossed around a lot in the scriptures which is fine too.
But what none of those titles have is then promise of Jesus. Jesus is the forgiver of sins. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is the only man who was ever perfect. There are many kings, but there is only one King of Kings and Lord and of Lords. Just like there are many gods but only one true God of gods. Jesus is the heel promised in genesis. Jesus is the only one who could fulfill the law.
The first quote doesn’t say Jesus is God, only that his spirit existed before the creation. The I am (Greek εγώ ειμι )
This is common language same here in John 9: 7-9 the blind man that was healed Jesus said to go wash himself in the pool. When he returned they were querying if it was the same man. The man said “I am” meaning I am the same man.
This is very different to Exodus 3: 13-14 God does not identify as “I am”, but rather as εγώ ειμι ο ων I am the One or the one being.
Jesus saying “the Father and I are one” is only a statement of enlightenment where there is union with God.
John 1:3 does not refer to Jesus. It may be interpreted this way by people, who are trinitarians, but the words do not refer to male gender. “The word” in Greek carries a male article. Also the word “God” in Greek carries a male article. There is no reference here to Jesus being “the Word” at all. This is only a peculiarity of the Greek language. For instance “the wall” carries a male article. It doesn’t make the door a male or having male gender. Every noun in Greek carries either a male, female or neuter article and for the most part it does not refer to gender.
Whether a short stack or not, Muhammad got it right. “There is no other God, but God”, which is exactly God’s words to Moses “I am the One or the one being”. εγώ ειμι ο ων.
How exciting! we’re going to lecture each other.
I’m a little surprised at your response to the name which Allah revealed to Muhammad that the angels had told Mary would be the name of the unborn, and perhaps still unconceived, baby that she would give birth to.
- I didn’t make up the name. According to the Quran, which–according to the Quran, Muhammad, and Islam–is Allah’s revelation to Muhammad, a prescient Allah, Islam’s “God of Abraham”, sent angels to Mary to tell her that her future son’s name is “Messiah Jesus son of Mary”:
Word by word
- What is the probability that there is a non-Messianic traditional religious Jew in the world who actually believes that the “God of Abraham” did such a thing and revealed the fact that He did it to Muhammad? I say: 0 probability.
- Consequently, I say that, whether a non-Messianic traditional religious Jew understands it or not, his “God of Abraham” is NOT Islam’s “God of Abraham” and I conclude that Jews and Muslims most certainly do not worship the same “God of Abraham”.
- In fact, I suspect that the very human and uninspired author of Surah 3:45 merged two separate accounts: i.e. Matthew 1:18-24 (in which an angel appeared to Joseph and told him to call the child in Mary’s womb: “Jesus” [Yehoshua], and Luke 2:8-13 (in which angels appeared to shepherds, bringing good news for everyone: that " today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ [Messiah] the Lord."
LOL! Whoopty-do! He got one thing right: “that there is no other god but God.” The problem is that he didn’t get that revelation directly from the God who spoke to Moses. So much for the Quran’s “divine revelation”.
Okay, but what are examples of what you mean? I’m still not following. You are saying Christianity was critique and reformed and there are lots of books about it?
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@NickolaosPappas, @tailspin, @marta:
I have you three people in mind as I write this post. Whether or not any of you will find anything of interest in what I say remains to be seen; however, I want to share something from a traditional, Conservative Jew, which I have found useful. [Note: I refer to the Jew as “traditional” in order to distinguish him from Messianic, or non-religious. agnostic, and atheist Jews. I refer to him as a capital “C” Conservative Jew in order to distinguish him from Reformist, Orthodox, and Hasidic Jews.)
- The Jew to whom I refer is Benjamin D. Sommer (not Sommers).
- [He] joined The Jewish Theological Seminary faculty as professor of Bible in July 2008. Previously, he served as director of the Crown Family Center for Jewish Studies at Northwestern University, where he had taught since 1994. Dr. Sommer has been a fellow at the Israel Institute for Advanced Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, the Tikvah Center for Jewish Law and Civilization at the New York University School of Law, and the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem. He has served as a visiting faculty member in the Department of Bible of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and at the Brite Divinity School in Fort Worth, Texas. He has received fellowships from the American Council of Learned Societies and the Yad Hanadiv/Berakha Foundation. [Professional Biography]
- Publications:
- Revelation and Authority: Sinai in Jewish Scripture and Tradition. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2015 (Anchor Bible Reference Library). At once a study of biblical theology and modern Jewish thought, this volume describes the ways biblical authors and contemporary theologians alike understand the process of revelation and hence the authority of the law.
- Jewish Concepts of Scripture: A Comparative Introduction . Editor. New York: New York University Press, 2012.
- A Prophet Reads Scripture: Allusion in Isaiah 40–66 . Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, 1998. Dr. Sommer examines the ways Deutero-Isaiah drew upon and reworked older biblical texts, and the implications of the prophet’s frequent recourse to older texts for our understanding of the history of Israelite religion. Winner of the 1999 Salo Wittmayer Baron Prize in 1998.
- The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel . New York: Cambridge University Press, 2009. Dr. Sommer addresses perceptions of divine embodiment in ancient Israel, Canaan, and Assyria, and how these perceptions reappear in later Jewish philosophy and mysticism. Winner of the 2009 Jordan Schnitzer Award of the Association of Jewish Studies in the category of Biblical Studies, Rabbinics, and Archaeology, and winner of the 2010 Award for Excellence in the Study of Religion (Textual Studies category) from the American Academy of Religion.
- Podcast The Bible For Normal People - Episode 147: Benjamin D. Sommer - Does God Have a Body? (Shorter content and presentation than the preceding video.)
- Dr. Sommer is the editor of the Psalms volumes of the Jewish Publication Society Bible Commentary series and is writing the first book of that five-volume set.
- Now this is specifically what I wanted to share: In Dr. Sommer’s book, Revelation and Authority, he writes:
- Throughout this book I use the terms “participatory theory of revelation” and “participatory theology” to speak of approaches to revelation that view the Pentateuch (and Jewish tradition generally) as the result of a dialogue between God and Israel. According to the participatory theology, the Pentateuch not only conveys God’s will but also reflects Israel’s interpretation of and response to that will. This view of revelation puts a premium on human agency and gives witness to the grandeur of a God who accomplishes a providential task through the free will of human subjects under God’s authority. We may contrast participatory theologies with a better-known view of revelation, which I term “the stenographic theory of revelation.” According to the latter theory, God dictated all the words of the Pentateuch to Moses, and Moses recorded God’s words without altering them. In the stenographic theory, all the words of the Pentateuch are God’s. In the participatory theory, the wording in the Pentateuch is a joint effort involving heavenly and earthly contributions; or the wording may be an entirely human response to God’s real but nonverbal revelation. Especially in the second chapter of this book, I argue that the Pentateuch itself gives voice to both stenographic and participatory theologies of revelation.
Χριστός ζει!
Christ lives.
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Very interesting!! After reading a book(dont remember the title exactly) i have to say that it makes sense that some of thosse violent verse the OT sometimes speak of were coming from Israels mouth rather than Gods.What do you think?
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He got a lot right, not just one thing. But the fact that there is only one God is of the greatest importance. And what does it matter if he got the revelation direct from God or through God’s messenger? It is still from God.
Whether the Surah was taken from Biblical sources or not, what does it matter?
And if you want to be critical of the Holy Quran, then you want to consider that all the writings of Paul, about 30% of the Bible are highly suspect. If you read it carefully enough you find evidence of serious corruption within his words.
You seem to think that each religion has its own God. There is only One Creator, One God. How humans try to define God or describe God doesn’t change the fact. Each prophet has addressed people according to their times and their understanding. Whether we talk of Brahman or Allah or the God of Abraham etc., etc., there is a Oneness of Being. The Divinity is One.
John 1:1-14
New American Standard Bible
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.
The Witness John the Baptist
6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.
The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
I’m definitely not a Trinitarian. But the Bible definitely teaches that Jesus is the manifestation of God’s word ( the Holy Spirit ) was made flesh. Jesus was not just any man. He was the son of God conceived in mary through the Holy Spirit. Because Jesus is the only begotten son of Yahweh and lived a sinless life, when he died he was able to conquer death and Yahweh gave all power and authority to Jesus making him.
Jesus is the head of the church and his father is the head of Jesus.
1 Corinthians 11:1-3
New American Standard Bible
Christian Order
11 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I handed them down to you. 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
Newsflash: Christians believe in one God.
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When a person subscribes to a stenographic theory of revelation, i.e. one in which God dictated all the words of a given scripture, and this or that human being recorded God’s words without altering them, one claims the highest standard for that scripture: i.e. “THESE are the words of God.”
The Quran promotes itself, was promoted by Muhammad, and was and has been promoted by Islam as being Allah’s words which confirm Muhammad’s divine appointment. lā ʾilāha ʾillā -llāhu muḥammadun rasūlu -llāhi
A “flaw” in the The Miraculous Language of the Qur’an: Evidence of Divine Origin is grounds for rejection of Muhammad as a prophet, the entire Quran, and Islam. They stand together or fall together.
I’m not the guy who says they stand together; Allah, Muhammad, and Islam say they stand together. I am the guy, however, who says that they have fallen together.
And I say, “No, it isn’t.” Looks to me like you and I have an irreconcilable difference between us.
Uhhh??? What are you talking about? My objection is not that it was not taken from a biblical source. My objection is that Allah, the alleged source of the Surah, is not
Allah is a poor imitation of Yahweh.
LOL! So says the person who believes and wants others to believe that Brahman, Allah, and any ol’ “One God” is the same as anybodyelse’s “One God”. What are you? a closet Baha’i? That’s what the Baha’i believe and teach.
So what if the words of Paul are highly suspect? Do you think I’m naive enough to back down from my criticism of Allah, Muhammad, and the Quran just because you can point to inconsistencies and inaccuracies in any writings attributed to Paul, or in the New Testament or Old testament, for that matter.
I don’t have to read it carefully enough. I’ve encountered plenty of atheists, agnostics, and heathen who have spent hours collecting, collating, and publishing the inconsistencies and corruptions in the Bible. Once upon a time, I was troubled and lost sleep over things they wrote. Not now. Now I know, as surely as I know my own autobiographical details, that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, resurrected, and ascended; that He lives, and that there is no other name under heaven by which it behooves us to be saved.
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