"What do you think about Islam?" Postscript

Faith & Science Conversation
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The first quote doesn’t say Jesus is God, only that his spirit existed before the creation. The I am (Greek εγώ ειμι )
This is common language same here in John 9: 7-9 the blind man that was healed Jesus said to go wash himself in the pool. When he returned they were querying if it was the same man. The man said “I am” meaning I am the same man.
This is very different to Exodus 3: 13-14 God does not identify as “I am”, but rather as εγώ ειμι ο ων I am the One or the one being.

Jesus saying “the Father and I are one” is only a statement of enlightenment where there is union with God.

John 1:3 does not refer to Jesus. It may be interpreted this way by people, who are trinitarians, but the words do not refer to male gender. “The word” in Greek carries a male article. Also the word “God” in Greek carries a male article. There is no reference here to Jesus being “the Word” at all. This is only a peculiarity of the Greek language. For instance “the wall” carries a male article. It doesn’t make the door a male or having male gender. Every noun in Greek carries either a male, female or neuter article and for the most part it does not refer to gender.

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Whether a short stack or not, Muhammad got it right. “There is no other God, but God”, which is exactly God’s words to Moses “I am the One or the one being”. εγώ ειμι ο ων.

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How exciting! we’re going to lecture each other.

I’m a little surprised at your response to the name which Allah revealed to Muhammad that the angels had told Mary would be the name of the unborn, and perhaps still unconceived, baby that she would give birth to.

  • I didn’t make up the name. According to the Quran, which–according to the Quran, Muhammad, and Islam–is Allah’s revelation to Muhammad, a prescient Allah, Islam’s “God of Abraham”, sent angels to Mary to tell her that her future son’s name is “Messiah Jesus son of Mary”:
    Word by word
    Screenshot_2021-04-04 The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran
    Screenshot_2021-04-04 The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Word by Word Grammar, Syntax and Morphology of the Holy Quran767×534 28.8 KB
  • What is the probability that there is a non-Messianic traditional religious Jew in the world who actually believes that the “God of Abraham” did such a thing and revealed the fact that He did it to Muhammad? I say: 0 probability.
  • Consequently, I say that, whether a non-Messianic traditional religious Jew understands it or not, his “God of Abraham” is NOT Islam’s “God of Abraham” and I conclude that Jews and Muslims most certainly do not worship the same “God of Abraham”.
  • In fact, I suspect that the very human and uninspired author of Surah 3:45 merged two separate accounts: i.e. Matthew 1:18-24 (in which an angel appeared to Joseph and told him to call the child in Mary’s womb: “Jesus” [Yehoshua], and Luke 2:8-13 (in which angels appeared to shepherds, bringing good news for everyone: that " today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ [Messiah] the Lord."
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LOL! Whoopty-do! He got one thing right: “that there is no other god but God.” The problem is that he didn’t get that revelation directly from the God who spoke to Moses. So much for the Quran’s “divine revelation”.

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Okay, but what are examples of what you mean? I’m still not following. You are saying Christianity was critique and reformed and there are lots of books about it?

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@NickolaosPappas, @tailspin, @marta:
I have you three people in mind as I write this post. Whether or not any of you will find anything of interest in what I say remains to be seen; however, I want to share something from a traditional, Conservative Jew, which I have found useful. [Note: I refer to the Jew as “traditional” in order to distinguish him from Messianic, or non-religious. agnostic, and atheist Jews. I refer to him as a capital “C” Conservative Jew in order to distinguish him from Reformist, Orthodox, and Hasidic Jews.)

  • The Jew to whom I refer is Benjamin D. Sommer (not Sommers).
    • [He] joined The Jewish Theological Seminary faculty as professor of Bible in July 2008. Previously, he served as director of the Crown Family Center for Jewish Studies at Northwestern University, where he had taught since 1994. Dr. Sommer has been a fellow at the Israel Institute for Advanced Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, the Tikvah Center for Jewish Law and Civilization at the New York University School of Law, and the Shalom Hartman Institute in Jerusalem. He has served as a visiting faculty member in the Department of Bible of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and at the Brite Divinity School in Fort Worth, Texas. He has received fellowships from the American Council of Learned Societies and the Yad Hanadiv/Berakha Foundation. [Professional Biography]
    • Publications:
      • Revelation and Authority: Sinai in Jewish Scripture and Tradition. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2015 (Anchor Bible Reference Library). At once a study of biblical theology and modern Jewish thought, this volume describes the ways biblical authors and contemporary theologians alike understand the process of revelation and hence the authority of the law.
      • Jewish Concepts of Scripture: A Comparative Introduction . Editor. New York: New York University Press, 2012.
      • A Prophet Reads Scripture: Allusion in Isaiah 40–66 . Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, 1998. Dr. Sommer examines the ways Deutero-Isaiah drew upon and reworked older biblical texts, and the implications of the prophet’s frequent recourse to older texts for our understanding of the history of Israelite religion. Winner of the 1999 Salo Wittmayer Baron Prize in 1998.
      • The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel . New York: Cambridge University Press, 2009. Dr. Sommer addresses perceptions of divine embodiment in ancient Israel, Canaan, and Assyria, and how these perceptions reappear in later Jewish philosophy and mysticism. Winner of the 2009 Jordan Schnitzer Award of the Association of Jewish Studies in the category of Biblical Studies, Rabbinics, and Archaeology, and winner of the 2010 Award for Excellence in the Study of Religion (Textual Studies category) from the American Academy of Religion.
      • Podcast The Bible For Normal People - Episode 147: Benjamin D. Sommer - Does God Have a Body? (Shorter content and presentation than the preceding video.)
      • Dr. Sommer is the editor of the Psalms volumes of the Jewish Publication Society Bible Commentary series and is writing the first book of that five-volume set.
  • Now this is specifically what I wanted to share: In Dr. Sommer’s book, Revelation and Authority, he writes:
    • Throughout this book I use the terms “participatory theory of revelation” and “participatory theology” to speak of approaches to revelation that view the Pentateuch (and Jewish tradition generally) as the result of a dialogue between God and Israel. According to the participatory theology, the Pentateuch not only conveys God’s will but also reflects Israel’s interpretation of and response to that will. This view of revelation puts a premium on human agency and gives witness to the grandeur of a God who accomplishes a providential task through the free will of human subjects under God’s authority. We may contrast participatory theologies with a better-known view of revelation, which I term “the stenographic theory of revelation.” According to the latter theory, God dictated all the words of the Pentateuch to Moses, and Moses recorded God’s words without altering them. In the stenographic theory, all the words of the Pentateuch are God’s. In the participatory theory, the wording in the Pentateuch is a joint effort involving heavenly and earthly contributions; or the wording may be an entirely human response to God’s real but nonverbal revelation. Especially in the second chapter of this book, I argue that the Pentateuch itself gives voice to both stenographic and participatory theologies of revelation.

Χριστός ζει!
Christ lives.

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Very interesting!! After reading a book(dont remember the title exactly) i have to say that it makes sense that some of thosse violent verse the OT sometimes speak of were coming from Israels mouth rather than Gods.What do you think?

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He got a lot right, not just one thing. But the fact that there is only one God is of the greatest importance. And what does it matter if he got the revelation direct from God or through God’s messenger? It is still from God.

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Whether the Surah was taken from Biblical sources or not, what does it matter?
And if you want to be critical of the Holy Quran, then you want to consider that all the writings of Paul, about 30% of the Bible are highly suspect. If you read it carefully enough you find evidence of serious corruption within his words.

You seem to think that each religion has its own God. There is only One Creator, One God. How humans try to define God or describe God doesn’t change the fact. Each prophet has addressed people according to their times and their understanding. Whether we talk of Brahman or Allah or the God of Abraham etc., etc., there is a Oneness of Being. The Divinity is One.

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John 1:1-14
New American Standard Bible
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. 5 And the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not grasp it.

The Witness John the Baptist
6 A man came, one sent from God, and his name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 This was the true Light that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

I’m definitely not a Trinitarian. But the Bible definitely teaches that Jesus is the manifestation of God’s word ( the Holy Spirit ) was made flesh. Jesus was not just any man. He was the son of God conceived in mary through the Holy Spirit. Because Jesus is the only begotten son of Yahweh and lived a sinless life, when he died he was able to conquer death and Yahweh gave all power and authority to Jesus making him.

Jesus is the head of the church and his father is the head of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 11:1-3
New American Standard Bible
Christian Order
11 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I handed them down to you. 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

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Newsflash: Christians believe in one God.

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When a person subscribes to a stenographic theory of revelation, i.e. one in which God dictated all the words of a given scripture, and this or that human being recorded God’s words without altering them, one claims the highest standard for that scripture: i.e. “THESE are the words of God.”

The Quran promotes itself, was promoted by Muhammad, and was and has been promoted by Islam as being Allah’s words which confirm Muhammad’s divine appointment. lā ʾilāha ʾillā -llāhu muḥammadun rasūlu -llāhi

A “flaw” in the The Miraculous Language of the Qur’an: Evidence of Divine Origin is grounds for rejection of Muhammad as a prophet, the entire Quran, and Islam. They stand together or fall together.

I’m not the guy who says they stand together; Allah, Muhammad, and Islam say they stand together. I am the guy, however, who says that they have fallen together.

And I say, “No, it isn’t.” Looks to me like you and I have an irreconcilable difference between us.

Uhhh??? What are you talking about? My objection is not that it was not taken from a biblical source. My objection is that Allah, the alleged source of the Surah, is not

Screenshot_2021-04-04 Yahweh - Google Search

Allah is a poor imitation of Yahweh.

LOL! So says the person who believes and wants others to believe that Brahman, Allah, and any ol’ “One God” is the same as anybodyelse’s “One God”. What are you? a closet Baha’i? That’s what the Baha’i believe and teach.
So what if the words of Paul are highly suspect? Do you think I’m naive enough to back down from my criticism of Allah, Muhammad, and the Quran just because you can point to inconsistencies and inaccuracies in any writings attributed to Paul, or in the New Testament or Old testament, for that matter.

I don’t have to read it carefully enough. I’ve encountered plenty of atheists, agnostics, and heathen who have spent hours collecting, collating, and publishing the inconsistencies and corruptions in the Bible. Once upon a time, I was troubled and lost sleep over things they wrote. Not now. Now I know, as surely as I know my own autobiographical details, that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, resurrected, and ascended; that He lives, and that there is no other name under heaven by which it behooves us to be saved.

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You’ve already been asked by the Admins to stop spreading medical misinformation :poop: And you have claimed that you have been reincarnated several times in the past, one time in ancient Egypt. :poop: So your credibility to me is zero. What makes you think that you can get away with spreading religious misinformation :poop: here? And on Easter Sunday?

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Firstly I thought that moderation on this site was private. How do you know that I have had posts removed citing “misinformation” as the reason. Those posts had to do with immunity and stress, but I have also been criticized on the grounds of stress and disease. . Well if I am spreading medical misinformation then I am in good company. I’ll just quote a few because Google comes up with hundreds of thousands.
So here: an NIH paper

In the discussion at the end it says, and I quote:
" Psychological stress has been implicated in altered immune functioning in many diseases. Stress induces chronic immune activation and altered health outcomes that resemble those seen in chronic inflammatory diseases such as RA [39, 40]. Altered immune function can lead to exacerbated symptoms of both physical and psychological illnesses. In irritable bowel syndrome, sustained cortisol activity during stress is associated with an increase in gastrointestinal symptoms [41]. High levels of proinflammatory cytokines resulting from stress have recently been implicated in the etiology of schizophrenia and schizophrenia-related brain alterations [42]. Chronic stress has been shown to enhance risk for developing autoimmune disease"
The authors are PhDs from University of Kentucky Are they pooh too, just like me?

Now the real offensive posts were with stress causes the immune system to be declined to some extent depending on the stress. So here:

So these are doctors and again I quote:
“In addition, stress decreases the body’s lymphocytes — the white blood cells that help fight off infection. The lower your lymphocyte level, the more at risk you are for viruses, including the common cold and cold sores.”

What about this? And again I quote
“: Under sustained, long-term stress, you also can develop cardiovascular problems, including a fast heart rate and heart disease, as well as gastric ulcers. You’ll also be at greater risk for type 2 diabetes, various cancers and mental decline.”

What I don’t agree with is their remedies, i.e., meditation and yoga.

Just one more
The Impact of Everyday Stressors on the Immune System and Health | SpringerLink"

And I quote: " Stress can also dysregulate humoral and cellular immune responses to pathogens, increasing risk for infectious illnesses including influenza and the common cold (Glaser and Kiecolt-Glaser 2005). The association between psychological stress and susceptibility to the common cold has long been recognized; stress suppresses the host resistance to infection and increases rates of infection (Cohen et al. 1991)."
The authors are academics form U of Zurich, Rice Univ. Houston and Ohio State University.

Now for the religious misinformation. Who is the authority that dictates to people what to believe and what is misinformation? If you don’t like to have this discussion on Easter Sunday, then pray tell me why was this thread started over Easter? It is about bagging Islam and Muslims.

It is, I estimate, between 5 and 6 rebirths in ancient Egypt. Don’t understand why that is so offensive? Maybe the reincarnation bit?

Yeah, I am pooh for speaking up, triple pooh as you have stated, even pooh to the nth degree. I am very tempted to give you an upvote.

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This is the only part to address, as I see the rest as a way of trying to denigrate Islam and the Prophet Muhammad.

You seem to think that the word “Allah” is a name. It is Arabic for the word “God”. Why didn’t the English translation of the bible not use the Greek word “Theos” but translated it as God? There is no difference between the words “Theos”, “God” or “Allah”. They all mean the same. And indeed even Brahman, which is “the ultimate reality underlying all phenomena” This too can be translated as “God”. You don’t need to be a Baha’i, to recognize the word “God” in different languages and /or religions. Even in the shamanic / Old Religion’s rituals where at the very start the witch or shaman say “where all things meet as One” is basically pointing to the same thing, God.

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1 The thread was not started on Easter. Check the dates.
2 People can look up the stuff you have posted and see what is going on.
3 This is supposed to be a Christian site.
4 What do you think of Verdi’s Aida?

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Minor correction:

  • Only someone who believes that Muhammad actually was a Prophet would think that my denial that he was a prophet is denigration (i.e. unfair criticism) of the Prophet Muhammad.
    1. You may disapprove of my denial, but I am unfazed by your disapproval. However, I reject your suggestion that my denial is “unfair”. That’s another irreconcilable difference between you and me.
  • Only someone who believes that Islam should not nor can be criticized can accuse me of criticizing it. I would be unfazed; however, your disapproval of my unfair criticism goes too far. I reject your suggestion that my criticism is “unfair”. That’s a third irreconcilable difference between you and me.
  • The only thing that you haven’t accused me of is “Islamophobia”. If you want to accuse me of that, go ahead; I would reject that too, and that would be a fourth irreconcilable difference between you and me.
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If some religion or philosophy or anything at that matter cant take critisism then its not worth the time in it.Christianity thankfully has a lot

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YHWH speaking to Moses got it right. There are not many gods, there is only one God, Who creates/ed the universe through God’s Pawer, speaks to God’s People through God’s Word, and loves everyone through God’s Spirit… Allah speaking to Muhammad got it wrong. Allah may be Simple, but God is not. God can walk and chew gum at the same time. God/YHWH is the Father Creator, the Son Savior Logos, the Spirit Love. God is One God, One in Power, One in Goodness, One in Purpose and Will.

But the real issue is not Who is God? The real issue who is willing to stand up for God. Who is willing to say that the warfare between and among Christians, Evangelicals, Jews, Orthodox, Sunnis, Shiites, Hindus, Buddhists, and None has got to stop. No one has clean hands. Hate and injustice are not God’s Way. It has got to stop and God’s People must be in the forefront. Faith without the Fruit of the Spirit is not Faith.

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It has to yes but the other religions will not inherit the Kingdom if they persist on their ways.Unless of course someone here is a universalist which im not gonna debate as i have done a million of times here