What Do You Mean When You Talk About Meaning (of Life, That is)?

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

(Nice trick, using the image itself as a hyperlink! I’m probably revealing my ignorance of html, but I got it figured. ; - )

[Kendel]

@mitchellmckain

What??? Why? Like I said I am of a median position.

I was agreeing with you.

Thanks for taking the time to flesh out your understanding of the question thoughtfully.

[mitchellmckain (Scientist and Christian)]

@Kendel

I was agreeing with you.

Ah… I see it now… I think… It is the first sentence which throws me. Which thought is “shockingly nihilistic?” That is what makes it hard to understand. I guess you mean the thought behind this evangelical methodology – it never occurred to me this would be described with the word “nihilistic.”

[Kendel]

Yes, you understand. Sorry I was unclear.
The apologetic assumption you mentioned — that assumes that life has no meaning without a relationship with God — strikes me as nihilistic.
It has other problems as well.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Kendel

The apologetic assumption you mentioned — that assumes that life has no meaning without a relationship with God — strikes me as nihilistic.

Agreed. I think. That is not quite the same as ‘has no ultimate meaning’ however.

[Dale (evolutionary providentialist)]

@Kendel

nihilistic

…may be an appropriate adjective in fact, not that Christians are never suicidal.

Teen Girls Report Record Levels of Sadness, C.D.C. Finds

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[MarkD (A Whateverist, not a Christian)]

Thanks for that road map back down memory lane. It may be as I grow longer in tooth that everything will seem new again. As I fade into senescent forgetfulness I shall have to make watching this video a standard feature in my ‘eternal’ Groundhog Day.

I’m not sure if I ever finished watching that video at the time but what a gold mine. I have to agree with @mitchellmckain, Foucault comes off as petty in an emotional way. He balks at the audacity of hypothesizing a ‘human nature’ but has blind allegiance to the unthinking rightness of proletariat power regardless of effects. By now we should all realize just how base, ignorant and dangerous are the inclinations of the uneducated who resent their station in life (think incels or white nationalists) … especially in the hands of those who would stoke that resentment and channel to their own ends. The indignation that laces so many of Foucault’s comments and those of his groupies when they open it up to the audience borders on conspiracy thinking, entirely irrational. Rationality is not all powerful but it sure beats descent into madness.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Kendel

Just to clarify, do you see the question “What is the meaning of life?” as synonymous with “What is the purpose of a person’s life?

The meaning of life is someone’s purpose. These two are one and the same in my opinion,and it’s different from everyone’s else’s .

I’m very fond of Nitsche in this one.

Life is suffering. That’s my view and that’s life from me. I’ve been suffering from quite some time to be honest. It has no ultimate meaning. But if I have some goal to achieve (or a purpose) then this is what matters and what’s keeps me going.

But from the other hand things don’t turn out always as we like to. So although I do agree people do need to have some purpose I also believe that with all that evil and randomness in this world the purpose might never been fulfilled.
Hense my question.

Another great question would have been.

Is this purpose or goal coming from God? Since it comes from our consciousness.

Another one would be.

If God has a purpose for us all(as a lot of Christians say) why some never reach it?

These two are an expansion of my comment above

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

Also what about people who find “dark meanings” or purposes for their lives?

Also a good question

[Kendel]

@marta

But that isn’t enough for some, there has to be some intrinsic meaning/purpose, and some people go to different lengths to find it, and if we don’t find it then we think we’re worth less, depressed etc.

I think you and I see this similarly. I wonder if we (maybe we Modern) humans tend to be IDers at heart after all, even if that design process doesn’t include a god/God of some sort. Are we intellectually too big for our existential breeches?

Are some of the questions we ask absurd, rather than the lack of a satisfying answer indicating that our lives are absurd?

Sometimes I feel like asking about ultimate meaning is like asking what magenta sounds like, or askng my parents to explain how the other one thought.

@klw

philosophical blog post that defines “purpose” as different from “meaning”

This tickled me:

These folks are not disillusioned goth teens getting all morose and forlorn with the black pants and the dark eye paints.

I taught a few of these kids and their more upbeat “grunge” peers back in the ‘90s. It’s a shame the more philosophical kids found so little space in their social world, where they could work out their questions and concerns. Many of them were already attempting to forge meaningful paths in their lives, where so much that surrounded them was vapid.

I do like that he works to define his terms somewhat.

Meaning is the WHY that subsumes every why. But while meaning is a bigger purpose, that is not all that it is. It is also a connection with something ultimate and non-contingent. Purpose is local and contingent.

I’m not convinced of his conclusions.

Sisyphus is the poster-child for meaninglessness at least in recent Western thought. And we can easily allow his story to become the interpretive lens for our own. In doing that, the lens is also a filter, though. What are the obvious differences between us and Sisyphus that we forget to see, when we apply this lens/filter?
Primarily Sisyphus’s eternal existence does have a meaning determined by the gods. Sisyphus’s eternal existence was devised to be a punishment. that was the meaning of his eternal life. That is its plan and purpose.

Particularly, if we see no ultimate meaning assigned to our lives our purpose for our existence, we should recognize that they cannot then carry the meaning or purpose of Sisyphus’s.

Once we get through this gate, we can contrast the deliberately established components (and lack of components) that are part of Sisyphus’s existence.

@mitchellmckain

We find significance and value in life for ourselves and the most we can say is that the different answers people come up with are not equal because there is a difference in how much they engage us like how a pet rock, a plant, a pet animal and a child are not equal. How much they respond to the efforts we invest does matter.

This is a good point. I think it’s important, though, to keep in mind that the value those things will differ, depending on one’s ability to respond to, or invest effort, etc. Jay and I have both brought up our concerns regarding questions of meaning and persons with disabilities (an enormous umbrella category). This can greatly impact what any individual values, how one invests effort, responds to, etc.
The greater challenge is understanding the reverse. How do we see the value of a person, whose ability to invest effort, respond, etc. is different or limited from “average.”

I’m confident, Mitchell, that you haven’t forgotten these things. We can’t fit everything into these posts (the way I appear to be attempt at the moment), but it’s not on everyone’s mind. So I bring it up here.

@MarkD

Our attention is drawn to what we find meaningful, sometimes even before we have figured out what that meaning may be. It is satisfying to make connections and gain understanding about the world, ourselves and our place in it. The meaning in life is found in that process.

THis is an interesting way to talk about it. I don’t think I’ve heard meaning talked about as a function of process.

@heymike3

What do you understand about an offer of infinite joy?

I was still hoping you’d flesh out this question more, but I don’t see that you have.

Answering as broadly as the question seems to be cast at face value: there are many offers of infinite joy given by many religions. Some are more dubious than others. Some, depending on one’s gender, are only limited to half the population. Some of those offers are self-indulgent, others less so.

@Relates

Therefore, I will go with Phil jpm and relationships, but not just any relationships, but love, which is the best and fullest relationship.

Roger, this really is the idea, isn’t it? But what kind of meaning in life is there, then, for people in lesser relationships, or whose loving relationships have desolved (I’m thinking particularly of older people who over decades have lost those relationship threads through various forms of atrition.)? Are their lives meanngless?

@NickolaosPappas

It has no ultimate meaning. But if I have some goal to achieve (or a purpose) then this is what matters and what’s keeps me going.

If you get a chance to read around this thread, I’d be interested in your take on the various ideas other people have proposed. Some are similar to yours, but there’s a good deal of variation even among those.

Your additional questions are worth considering. Thanks for including them. I hope to come back to one or two later today.

[heymike3]

@heymike3

For Augustine, we are what we love. In fact, we can’t stop loving: even fallen, sinful humanity is still propelled to love

If I may be so bold the meaning of meaning is irrelevant when we cannot stop loving.

Piper and Lewis understood this propensity to love as did Augustine and Smith.

“Once we had no delight in God, and Christ was just a vague historical figure. What we enjoyed was food and friendships and productivity and investments and vacations…but not God. He was an idea—even a good one—and a topic for discussion; but He was not a treasure of delight.” Piper

This relates perfectly to unbelievers and meaning. While they have no object of ultimate delight in Jesus they still have various objects of delight in the world and not all of those delights are necessarily sinful in themself.

[heymike3]

@Kendel

I was still hoping you’d flesh out this question more, but I don’t see that you have.

My previous comment should help with this. Let me know if it doesn’t.

@Kendel

Answering as broadly as the question seems to be cast at face value: there are many offers of infinite joy given by many religions. Some are more dubious than others. Some, depending on one’s gender, are only limited to half the population. Some of those offers are self-indulgent, others less so.

I’d draw a stark line between self-indulgent and self-interest. The line Piper drew was part of the hole I kept tripping over. And it’s why I think Smith made a more excellent explanation of how this propensity to love is satisfied in God.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Kendel

If you get a chance to read around this thread, I’d be interested in your take on the various ideas other people have proposed. Some are similar to yours, but there’s a good deal of variation even among those.

I’ve read some.

@marta one comes to mind. She generally agrees with me that there’s no ultimate purpose or common meaning. So nothing to add here.

@Relates also . But I have the same problem as you have

You wrote

@Kendel

Roger, this really is the idea, isn’t it? But what kind of meaning in life is there, then, for people in lesser relationships, or whose loving relationships have desolved (I’m thinking particularly of older people who over decades have lost those relationship threads through various forms of atrition.)? Are their lives meanngless?

You are in my head.

What about those people who are broken emotionallly or have no relationships? Either because of their mental beign or because of society. Are they castouts? I don’t like to think so

I’ve also read about contribution to society as a meaning. I think @SkovandOfMitaze proposed the idea. Although indeferent from me I guess I can understand his point.

[heymike3]

Thank you for making the NYT article available.

“How can I not be able to talk to my oldest friend?” Pete asked. “Brooksie can talk to people. I can’t.”

That hit home. 25 years ago before God rescued me, I was a very troubled young man and one night I would have probably pulled the trigger if I had a gun in my hand.

[Kendel]

@NickolaosPappas

Are they castouts? I don’t like to think so

No, I don’t think so. But if we see “meaning of life” as “a sense of place in the world” as I suggest, it is not only subjective but potentially fragile. If my suggestion describes reality, it also suggests both power and responsibility in the way we build and handle relationships. Assuming we have some moral responsibility to each other.

My views on this are a work in progress, however.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

@Kendel

my suggestion describes reality, it also suggests both power and responsibility in the way we build and handle relationships

Can you expand on it more if you could?

[Mervin_Bitikofer]

@heymike3

…I was a very troubled…

Such desperate rescues must profoundly influence a person’s outlook in ways that are difficult to appreciate for those who haven’t experienced the same. Yet we are all ‘rescues’ of one sort or another.

[heymike3]

Thanks Mervin. Sometimes I forget how bad it was. The article Dale shared really brought that home. Especially the part I quoted… it took me back to that night which I probably hadn’t thought about in years, if not 10 or more… wow.

[NickolaosPappas (Nick)]

Sadly many of us didnt get "saved: by God .Makes you wonder,

Ive been multiple times in that night.Dont know how im still alive.Those here who know my story will understand.Maybe its my delusion that everytime i cry to God i hope that a miracle will happen in the future and my subconciousness tell me to hold on just a little longer

[Kendel]

@NickolaosPappas

@Kendel

my suggestion describes reality, it also suggests both power and responsibility in the way we build and handle relationships

Can you expand on it more if you could?

@NickolaosPappas , I’ll try. This is a work in progress.
I’m not interested so much in ultimates in regard to this question, because I don’t think the question makes much sense framed that way and really sets us up for for failure in understanding our existence in any useful way.

I’m suggesting that our sense of place in the world is what we derive an understanding of meaning of life from, and that that sense of place in the world is the result of many “threads”, which include human connections.

From my limited experience and observation, human connections of all kinds are essential to our grasp of meaning, of having a place in the world. If that is the case, we are dependent on others for some part of that sense, and anyone in connection with us may also be dependent on us.

If someone IS dependent on me, I actually have some amount of power, which I can chose to use for good or ill, or leave unused as well. Damage and indifference (abuse and neglect) provide vivid examples of the extent of that power in the lives of others.

If I really do hold power of any kind in reltionships, and it can affect the sense of place in the world that another person has, I think that implies a great deal of responsibility in how I use that power.

Sticking with the web metaphor that I used earlier, The more threads a person has that connect them to their world, the greater potential for a stable sense of place. This can and does change over time. We see this a great deal with older people. We also saw this a lot with COVID lockdowns and then what came after. The normal, mechanical social interactions (work place contact, church, community groups, classroom contacts) were suddenly severed. Bam. Overnight we potentially went from hundreds of contacts per day to less than 10. What about people who had less than 10 to start with, who were dependent on the mechanical social interactions to help them maintain ANY at all (think old people at church)? Now, all the people they would see when they could make it to church, were focused in different ways and easily forgot about the people they would see casually, but wouldn’t normally think of during the week. Those few, more fragile connections were severed, sometimes leaving none.

What I am proposing is independent from value of life. But our valuing of life, individual lives, is reflected in the way we handle the relationships that give others a sense of place in their world.

@NickolaosPappas, anyone else, I’m interested in your thoughts.